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Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by rayiner on Sunday December 20, 2020 @07:25PM (#25490928)
I’m really not sure there is a sound conclusion to be drawn from comparing the Tulsa Massacre to people being skeptical of food from a different culture. The former is something that’s a unique and very ugly aspect of American history. The latter is pretty much universal.[1] You can squint and lump both things under the umbrella of “racism” but they’re so different as to be two completely different kind of things. And I don’t think it’s particularly useful to analyze both through the same lens.

Note that when Kendi talks about “racism” he’s talking about anti-Black racism specifically. I think folks try to generalize his ideas in a way that goes beyond what he actually purports to address.

[1] My Bangladeshi mom had a tinge of skepticism upon first learning my girlfriend (now wife) was from Oregon, “because they eat snakes.”

Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by chanakya on Monday December 21, 2020 @01:14AM (#25492545)
I'd go even further and say that just because America has a history of racism and racist ideas does not mean that racism continues to be a major factor today. I've read Kendi, and he offers scant evidence that it is.
Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by wpietri on Monday December 21, 2020 @10:03AM (#25495502)
Why would you expect a scholarly 500-year history of racist ideas to offer evidence of racism's existence today?
Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by chanakya on Monday December 21, 2020 @12:55PM (#25497399)
I didn't mean his books on history. In the last 15 months or so, he's also published 3(!) books on racism in contemporary society.
Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by wpietri on Monday December 21, 2020 @01:38PM (#25497905)
Ok? None of them look like books whose goal is to prove that racism exists. With a book title like, "How to be an Antiracist", I would think anybody would understand that the target audience is people who are well past questioning whether racism is still a thing. It's like expecting a cookbook to open with studies on why meals are a good idea.
Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by chanakya on Wednesday December 23, 2020 @09:39AM (#25517991)
ok. Perhaps that's what he's trying to do. If someone wants more evidence that current racism is a significant force in determining outcomes in society, where should they look for references? What convinced you to move past questioning?
Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by wpietri on Wednesday December 23, 2020 @04:12PM (#25522281)
I'm not an expert here, so I can't say for sure, and the evidence you personally need will depend a lot on you. Perhaps take an online African-American Studies course and go from there?

Just from what I've read, I'd again recommend Loewen's Sundown Towns. He covers the post-Reconstruction past in the early chapters; latter chapters bring it to the present day. The combination of historical data with historical testimony was very convincing to me. The Atlantic has had a number of good articles on this over the last decade. E.g.: https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=atl...

There's a lot in the employment world. A study that was really eye-opening for me was this one: https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873

I also found some manager-focused classes on implicit bias very helpful in seeing how subtle the problem gets. An online course might help you as well. And the Project Implicit tests from Harvard helped me see some of my own implicit biases, which were notably different than my conscious beliefs.

And lastly, I strongly recommend breaking one's personal filter bubble: https://medium.com/@bjmay/how-26-tweets-broke-my-filter-bubb...

That was especially valuable for me in turning academic knowledge of the past into conviction about the present. When I listen to the daily lived experience of other people, it eventually became obvious to me that the same forces were at work. Racism has been diminished, and most racists know they can't speak openly [1]. But the problems have never gone away. As Faulkner said, "The past is never dead. It's not even past."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy#Evolution_(1...

Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by alentist on Friday December 25, 2020 @06:10AM (#25535787)
The IAT is pseudoscience.

The Implicit Association Test at Age 21: No Evidence for Construct Validity [0]

> The Implicit Association Test (IAT) is 21 years old. Greenwald et al. (1998) proposed that the IAT measures individual differences in implicit social cognition. This claim requires evidence of construct validity. I review the evidence and show that there is insufficient evidence for this claim. Most important, I show that few studies were able to test discriminant validity of the IAT as a measure of implicit personality characteristics and that a single-construct model fits multi-method data as well or better than a dual-construct models. Thus, the IAT appears to be a measure of the same personality characteristics that are measured with explicit measures. I also show that the validity of the IAT varies across personality characteristics. It has low validity as a measure of self-esteem, moderate validity as a measure of racial bias, and high validity as a measure of political orientation. The existing evidence also suggests that the IAT measures stable characteristics rather than states and has low predictive validity of single behaviors. Based on these findings, it is important that users of the IAT clearly distinguish between implicit measures and implicit constructs. The IAT is an implicit measure, but there is no evidence that it measures implicit constructs.

The Creators of the Implicit Association Test Should Get Their Story Straight [1]

> The problem, as I showed in a lengthy rundown of the many, many problems with the test published this past January, is that there’s very little evidence to support that claim that the IAT meaningfully predicts anything. In fact, the test is riddled with statistical problems — problems severe enough that it’s fair to ask whether it is effectively “misdiagnosing” the millions of people who have taken it, the vast majority of whom are likely unaware of its very serious shortcomings. There’s now solid research published in a top journal strongly suggesting the test cannot even meaningfully predict individual behavior. And if the test can’t predict individual behavior, it’s unclear exactly what it does do or why it should be the center of so many conversations and programs geared at fighting racism.

Psychology’s Favorite Tool for Measuring Racism Isn’t Up to the Job [2]

[0] https://replicationindex.com/2019/02/15/iat21

[1] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/12/iat-behavior-problem...

[2] https://www.thecut.com/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-...

Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by wpietri on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:03AM (#25537180)
What kind of person haunts 4-day-old articles to post long, off-topic comments like this? And that cites Jesse Singal of all people as some sort of authority?

What I said is that it was helpful to me personally. Which it was, in that it helped me recognize my own implicit anti-black bias. Unless you'd like to prove that the whole concept of unexamined biases is 100% unreal, please move along and let people have a discussion untainted with irrelevant interruptions.

Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by wpietri on Monday December 21, 2020 @10:06AM (#25495538)
Good thing that's not what I said, then. I pointed you at an endemic, centuries-long pattern of widespread American racism. You reduced it to one landmark event and then dismissed it.

It is also true that people are skeptical of different foods period. But more than one thing can be be happening at once.

Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by rayiner on Monday December 21, 2020 @01:09PM (#25497573)
You pointed to a book that focuses on racism arising out of the enslavement of Black people in America and subsequent events over 500 years, in an article addressing the MSG myth. My point is that whatever inferences you can draw from that aren't usefully generalized to Americans being skeptical of what Chinese restaurants put in their food.

Skepticism of foreigners and the food they eat is universal to human societies. Enslavement of a distinct minority group, amounting to 1/8 of the population, for hundreds of years, and the social and economic consequences that remain when slavery ends and the groups must subsequently live alongside each other, is sui generis. It's not analytically useful to look at both things through the same lens. The causes, consequences, dynamics, and solutions are more or less completely different.

Skepticism of Chinese food ingredients is much better understood through the lens of the experience of prior generations of immigrants: Germans, Irish, Italians, etc. Anti-German antagonism in World War II accelerated uptake of English in German-speaking communities in the midwest and caused people to change their names; JFK's candidacy was met with charges of Popery; and people were actually quite skeptical of Italian food and unfamiliar ingredients like garlic.

Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by wpietri on Monday December 21, 2020 @01:34PM (#25497852)
I pointed to two books that helped me understand a pervasive phenomenon in America. I agree I can't generalize two books to all of everything. But then, I didn't do that. There's an ocean of scholarship on this.

That you keep building straw men out of what I say makes me think this is not a great use of my time.

Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by rayiner on Monday December 21, 2020 @04:14PM (#25499632)
I'm not criticizing your generalization because you're basing it on two books. I'm criticizing your generalization from books that are mainly about one context (the legacy of the enslavement of Black people) to a different context (American skepticism of foreign food). I disagree with your basic premise that the two things arise from the same "phenomenon"--generalized "racism."
Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by wpietri on Monday December 21, 2020 @06:44PM (#25501156)
Ok. I'll give it one more go, just in case you are sincere but struggling.

That is not in fact my basic premise.

My basic premise, is, as I said: "it's worth asking both questions: Is racism really at play? And given America's lasting, endemic racism, is there reason to think something makes it absent in a given case?"

If America's history of racism were somehow only limited to Black people, then perhaps we could dismiss out of hand the notion that said racism could have something to do with a fact-free hysteria about "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome". But that's demonstrably not true.

Note that I've never said the two things are necessarily linked. I'm just saying that we can't presume a priori that racism isn't involved. We shouldn't assume that it is, but we mustn't assume that it isn't.

Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by rayiner on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @03:14PM (#25510657)
> My basic premise, is, as I said: "it's worth asking both questions: Is racism really at play? And given America's lasting, endemic racism, is there reason to think something makes it absent in a given case?"

Yes, and this premise is flawed. You’re thinking of “racism” as one phenomenon weaving together the enslavement of Black people and skepticism about Chinese food. My point is that this is not a useful way to understand what’s happening.

Look at it this way. In Bangladesh, where I’m from, we also have many negative stereotypes of Chinese food. My impression is that such sentiments are common across the sub-continent. But obviously we don’t share what you’re calling “America’s lasting, endemic racism.” What you’re calling anti-Chinese racism is an expression of the xenophobia that exists in nearly every human society.

Anti-Black racism in America is completely different. It didn’t cause slavery. It was constructed to justify slavery and colonization: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/08/europe.... There is a superficial similarity, insofar both involves in-group versus out-group antagonism. But anti-Black racism isn’t just one expression of the ordinary out-group antagonism that exists all over the world. It’s something quite distinct.

Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by wpietri on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @08:02PM (#25513295)
Your notion seems to be that one couldn't possibly connect the elements of white culture that led to anti-black violence and structural discrimination with the cultural elements that drove those same white people to perform a lot of anti-Asian violence and structural discrimination. I think that's bunk. If you don't, you're welcome to try to prove it. But don't prove it to me. Prove it to the many academics who study this topic. If you convince them, I'll definitely read your book.

Is that related to a broad human tendency to xenophobia? Sure. But that xenophobia is channeled through and reinforced by cultural elements. Many societies demonstrate racism, but none of them demonstrate it exactly equally to everybody else. Like it or not, there's a history and a structure here, and I think it's worth studying.

I understand that a lot of people have the hobby of pretending racism is a much smaller problem, or perhaps no problem at all. But since those people have been consistently wrong in the US for the last couple hundred years, I don't aim to devote a lot of energy to taking them seriously.

Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by Frondo on Sunday December 20, 2020 @07:36PM (#25490966)
Before you edited your comment, you said something about Americans being very willing to embrace foods from cultures around the world. For some reason, that remark reminded me of one of the talking points of the 2016 election, the specter of "taco trucks on every corner," and how the Republican campaign that year suggested that that'd be a bad thing.
Re:The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019) by rayiner on Sunday December 20, 2020 @08:02PM (#25491100)
Trump throws a lot of stuff at the wall to see what sticks. That one didn’t even register with his own base. I remember having lunch one day in central Illinois—a rural county that went for Trump by 20 points this year. The most popular restaurant in town was a Mexican place. Even Breitbart likes taco trucks: https://www.breitbart.com/health/2020/09/17/video-daughter-h...