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Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by rangersanger on Saturday December 19, 2020 @10:14AM (#25477852)
I would happily pay $5 a month For an ad free search engine that didn’t index Pinterest.
Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by dalbasal on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:12PM (#25478949)
I think this can be generalised as "more power to users." You might want to filter Pinterest. OP wants to avoid mainstream news, social media, nor shopping/product sites. This requires users to be involved.

Filters, refinement, user preferences. etc etc. Search is a powerful tool, and the power has been growing exponentially since 1995. But, almost all of that power is channeled into instant results, intuitiveness, "sane defaults" and such. All the capabilities are in the background and the assumed user is lowest denominator on all fronts. The low effort, low technical capabilities, low understanding, etc. This is most people (me included) most of the time, but not all of the time. Maybe I want to filter seo spam (like pinterest) more aggressively. Etc.

This isn't a slam on google really. One thing can't do everything and the thing google search does is what most people need most of the time. It's definitely the thing that makes the most money. But... none of a search engines power has been channeled into making search a power tool. It's a tool that everyone uses many times per day, but there is no learning curve. No getting better. You can't really invest effort and get rewarded for that effort.

Pity really, all this power is there. It's right under the surface. Let us be more than the lazy, dumb user sometimes.

Google have reversed the User Interface paradigm. Instead of users learning the software and telling it what to do, the software learns the user. I don't necessarily mean NNs or personalisation. I mean that the paraign is software-centric. "If the user does X, how should the software respond?" instead of "If the user user wants Y, how does she make the software do it?" That's great for intuitiveness, but it also creates a frame where the software gets better over time but the user never does.

Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by abraae on Saturday December 19, 2020 @02:49PM (#25480541)
Yeah, I also want filters, refinement, user preferences. etc.

And I want it to be social - I want to search using the same filters that Tim Bray uses.

Or I want to use the filters that the people use who in aggregate tend to click through to the same results pages that I visit.

So much amazing stuff could be done, but here we are controlled by algorithms that treat us all as brain dead sheep who only want to know about what the Kardashians are up to.

I suspect that Google knows about these desires, but would prefer the world where everyone is a sheep.

Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by visarga on Saturday December 19, 2020 @02:19PM (#25480284)
> think this can be generalised as "more power to users."

I agree, we need more power to control. There should be more than one recipe for ranking and filtering, and we should have more to say about what information is being hidden from us. Society is diverse, a single formula automatically discriminates some groups. Let people make the choice.

Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by smichel17 on Monday December 21, 2020 @01:49PM (#25498023)
> Google have reversed the User Interface paradigm. Instead of users learning the software and telling it what to do, the software learns the user. I don't necessarily mean NNs or personalisation. I mean that the paraign is software-centric. "If the user does X, how should the software respond?" instead of "If the user user wants Y, how does she make the software do it?" That's great for intuitiveness, but it also creates a frame where the software gets better over time but the user never does.

May I quote you on this?

It is a great description of the 3rd premise in a talk proposal I submitted to LibrePlanet 2021, which goes something like:

- Software freedom is predicated on the notion that users ought to be in control of what runs on their computers.

- I claim that tech literacy is necessary to exercise this control.

- "Google Design" presumes that "nontechnical users" are not and will never be capable of tech literacy.

If all of these are true, then "Google Design" is incompatible with the idea that Software Freedom is for everyone. And indeed, we see this borne out in many people's disdain for copyleft licenses, which impose restrictions on developers in order to guarantee freedoms for end users. That's a logical viewpoint, if you believe that end users wouldn't benefit from software freedom, anyway.

"Google Design" does make software more accessible to end users… at the cost of turning your computer into an appliance. Which makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. People don't magically become tech literate; they intentionally learn the skills so they can achieve something. Remove the power from the tools, and you take away their motivation to become tech literate. I have a great story about my grandma to illustrate this point.

If our goal is to make computing (and, by extension, software freedom) more accessible to everyone, then we need to change our approach. We need to prioritize education and teaching tech literacy. And most of all, we need to write software that is powerful enough that users will see the benefit in learning to use it.

That's they key points from the first half of the talk. The second half is about how we can create software that is powerful without sacrificing usability. It basically boils down to "make simple things easy and hard things possible" — creating software that Just Works™ without configuration, but allows you to customize its behavior if/when you want to. In particular, I'm a fan of embedded scripting interfaces (e.g. spreadsheets), which allow a vast amount of customization without creating "settings overload" that is typical of many FLO[1] programs.

[1]: https://wiki.snowdrift.coop/about/free-libre-open#flo

Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by dotancohen on Saturday December 19, 2020 @11:40AM (#25478591)
I'm with you on this. I would pay far less, $1/month would be the point where I would begin considering it. There are just too many "only $5" services and they would add up quickly if I were to allow myself that amount of money.

The problem with this model, though, is support. A service with 100 million untrained end users each paying a dollar will need to provide quality customer service to 100 million untrained end users. It is much easier to sell ads to 10,000 "affiliates" who feel that they have some special arrangement and thus accept some responsibility of their own, and make $10,000 off each of those.

Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by true_religion on Saturday December 19, 2020 @11:57AM (#25478774)
I agree there are too many $5 services, but a search engine is something that I use every waking hour of my day. I get so much use from it, that $5 per month is a bargin.

I would definitely pay Google just to be able to remove some sites permanently from my results. They're just spam to me, even if Google thinks they are legitimate.

Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by freedomben on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:07PM (#25478885)
Yes, exactly right. If people are paying any amount at all they expect it to work and work perfectly. I'm not saying that's unreasonable, but it does quickly become unfeasible at scale with users who have no training at all.

Then on top of that the skimming the payment processors do makes a large percentage of that $1/month go to transaction fees. Charging yearly helps with that but many people won't want to do that.

Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by Closi on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:22PM (#25479062)
Facebook makes $50 per user per year, so I would assume $1 per month is an order of magnitude less than what google is making from you at the moment.

$10 per month is probably more realistic.

Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by layer8 on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:31PM (#25479154)
I’m using a search shortcut that just adds “-pinterest” to all searches (and also activates Google verbatim search mode).
Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by enriquto on Saturday December 19, 2020 @11:42AM (#25478607)
I'd love an option to setup domains where no search results are to be returned. Of course pinterest, but also quora, (and sometimes reddit), etc.
Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by pault on Saturday December 19, 2020 @02:46PM (#25480512)
-site:Pinterest.com
Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by mishac on Saturday December 19, 2020 @04:31PM (#25481405)
That doesn't work well for me because I get still get pinterest.co.uk, pinterest.ca, pitnerest.it etc etc.

I guess we need wildcard domain exlclusion.

Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by LordNight on Saturday December 19, 2020 @06:30PM (#25482313)
The correct command is -inurl:pinterest.

Additionally, for those, who likes to add reddit in the search query, i'd also like to recommend " inurl:forum OR inurl:board " (note also that forum and forums gives different results for some reason).

Personally, I like to do broad searches on google to discover new stuff, but for the past 7 or 8 years, google often returns ~100 result instead of the usual 1000000+. And, contrary to the logic, adding various inurl: commands actualy gives you more results instead of limiting them and thus significantly improves searching capabilities.

Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by ajnin on Saturday December 19, 2020 @03:04PM (#25480693)
I'm using the following User Script to remove specific domains from Google search results. It does the job well enough for me.

https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/1682-google-hit-hider-by-d...

Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by kome on Saturday December 19, 2020 @04:49PM (#25481536)
google with filters for a dollar a month would be awesome, like a function to "block this domain forever"... it would clean my search results from the annoying offenders. and i would gather user inputted blocked domains data to produce better search results for non subscribing users...
Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by kordlessagain on Saturday December 19, 2020 @10:38AM (#25478018)
Working on it.
Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by slater on Saturday December 19, 2020 @10:55AM (#25478154)
Oh?
Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by mech422 on Saturday December 19, 2020 @06:16PM (#25482217)
The really annoying part about pinterest, is I never seem to be able to get back to the original directions/plans/whatever. Its like "Hey, look at this cool stuff I won't tell you how to make, even though I swiped it from a HOWTO site"
Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by disown on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:19PM (#25479021)
or you could just add "-pinterest" to your search query and save yourself $5.
Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by mech422 on Saturday December 19, 2020 @06:17PM (#25482229)
I would also pay to have google freaking remember my search preferences. You've got my dang account - pull the prefs. from it.
Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by jeffbee on Saturday December 19, 2020 @11:38AM (#25478570)
Honestly wouldn’t it be against EU antitrust policy to explicitly do this?
Re:How AltaVista, the first good search engine, fell into th... by dotancohen on Saturday December 19, 2020 @11:42AM (#25478606)
It would work if instead of deindexing Pintrest specifically, the end user could enter a list of sites that they wish to never see results for.