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Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by Wowfunhappy on Friday December 18, 2020 @10:36PM (#25474769)
> I've always found the fact that such information is exposed by default and can thus make a VM obviously not look more like real hardware is puzzling.

Eh, it seems to me that software ought to be cooperative by default. Plenty of programs will detect whether you have AMD or nVidia graphics and optimize itself for your hardware—why not VMWare graphics?

Where I agree is that there ought to be an easy checkbox to hide it.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by ogre_codes on Friday December 18, 2020 @11:20PM (#25474990)
I agree with this in most cases, but when it comes to Javascript and fingerprinting, I think systems should be as generic as possible. This isn't even a VM versus bare metal thing.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by Wowfunhappy on Friday December 18, 2020 @11:22PM (#25474995)
Right, and so browsers need to fix this! Not because of VMs but because a web page, unlike desktop software, has no business knowing my graphics card.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by grimli333 on Friday December 18, 2020 @11:37PM (#25475073)
Well, presumably there may be valid use cases for WebGL applications or games behaving differently according to specific vendors/drivers.

It feels like something that needs to be asked permission for, however, so it can’t be used for nefarious purposes.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by Wowfunhappy on Friday December 18, 2020 @11:44PM (#25475115)
...I don't know. I realize this is an entirely subjective view of what a web page should be, but I just don't think any website should know the intricacies of my hardware. The web is a low-friction, low-trust environment; installing a desktop app has more friction, but it also acts as a signal of greater trust.

If a website ever really needs to know my hardware, it can ask me to choose from a drop-down. A lot of users won't know what hardware they have—but, those users are also unlikely to understand the implications of a hardware-detection permission prompt.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by yjftsjthsd-h on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:37AM (#25475365)
I mean, it's the usual duality. If a browser is for browsing documents, then of course you don't need that. And if a browser is a method for running arbitrary applications pseudo-safely, then it absolutely should be doing that.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by PurpleFoxy on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:42AM (#25475388)
The web APIs seem to be filled with features that in theory could be useful but you would have to do some serious hunting to find a legitimate user while you are flooded with examples of evil uses.

Firefox removed the battery API for this. In theory you could do something like show a stripped down site for low power users or something but it was only ever used for tracking.

While browsers have been used for a lot now, gaming seems like the one place we have seen virtually no use outside of random 2D games. I doubt there is a single web game that actually makes useful use of the gpu vendor details.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by tomaszs on Saturday December 19, 2020 @03:20AM (#25476031)
The problem with limiting browser features is that it makes web apps less competitive with apps on propertiary platforms. I agree not all websites should have access to battery API, but the user should decide on that, not a browser vendor. The same goes for all other limitations imposed.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by pksebben on Saturday December 19, 2020 @07:01AM (#25476899)
I think the sane argument here is for sensible defaults. Leaving all those switches turned on is just opening the door for adtech. The set of information that's made available out of the box should be small, and if you need to access information about my graphics card, you can ask for it.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by Wowfunhappy on Saturday December 19, 2020 @09:55AM (#25477732)
I think this only works if the average consumer can assess what is being asked for, though. “Do you want to let this website know what hardware you have?” is not a simple question.

“What is hardware?”

“Should I let a game know my hardware? Should I let a news website know my hardware?”

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by tomaszs on Saturday December 19, 2020 @10:53AM (#25478139)
It is a discussion how to do it right. And surely, if propertiary platforms can do it, browsers can do it too. Especially propertiary platform app has permission to the system data enabled on default. Browser asking for it, would make web apps safer than native ones
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by pksebben on Thursday December 24, 2020 @11:45PM (#25534269)
If one does not understand what they are being asked to consent to, they are incapable of giving informed consent.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by ogre_codes on Friday December 18, 2020 @11:34PM (#25475057)
> Right, and so browsers need to fix this!

Makes sense to me. There are a lot of legitimate reasons software on your computer might need to know it's in a VM or what the limits of your VR engine are.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by zensavona on Friday December 18, 2020 @10:51PM (#25474845)
And most importantly, it should be checked by default IMO
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by Wowfunhappy on Friday December 18, 2020 @10:58PM (#25474887)
...no, that's where I don't agree. Again, software should attempt to be truthful by default. There's a reason we allow programs to detect the hardware they're running on—it allows for all sorts of optimizations.

Does the VM claim it's network driver was manufactured by Broadcom, or does it go with Cambridge Silicon Radio? Or does it decline to provide a vendor, and if it does, how long until software starts assuming that is the sign of a VM, except this time with potential false positives for users of niche hardware?

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by yjftsjthsd-h on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:40AM (#25475376)
I think a key distinction is whether we're in an adversarial context or not. And I think loading untrusted applications over network connection from arbitrary third parties is absolutely a position to be distrustful.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by userbinator on Saturday December 19, 2020 @03:41AM (#25476122)
Does the VM claim it's network driver was manufactured by Broadcom, or does it go with Cambridge Silicon Radio?

It would simply be whatever the virtual NIC is. Intel ones seem to be pretty common, likely due to wide availability of drivers and documentation.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by elcomet on Saturday December 19, 2020 @02:57AM (#25475907)
It could report the host's hardware.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by Wowfunhappy on Saturday December 19, 2020 @09:58AM (#25477753)
But now you're leaking information about the host, which I would think is worse given the purpose of a VM.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by ruslanbogan on Saturday December 19, 2020 @10:35AM (#25477994)
It would have to emulate the host hardware to do that because the fingerprint is only going to report what's listed in Device Manager for instance.