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Re:Gmail having issues by com2kid on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:34PM (#25436185)
This is pretty much the worst response possible. Hard bounces mean that email delivery services are going to start automatically removing, or at least stopping delivery to, entire slews of email addresses.

A lot of clean up is going to be needed as a result of this.

To add some more details, when using a 3rd party email delivery service, those services will either black-list or just outright remove email addresses when they get a hard bounce "email address no longer exists" message back.

Some providers make re-adding an address after a hard bounce a non-trivial task, since after all, the authority on that email address just said it doesn't exist.

This is going to be really ugly.

Re:Gmail having issues by octoberfranklin on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @08:33PM (#25437955)
I really cannot believe they did not immediately hack in a new rule to their SMTP server: never return a 5xx (permanent failure), instead return a 421 (temporary failure try again later).

That simple fix buys them 24-72 hours to solve this properly.

Yeah, it burdens servers sending mail to them because now they have to hold on to all mail (including mail that really is permanently undeliverable) for another day or so, but that's still better than what's happening right now.

Re:Gmail having issues by jeffbee on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @10:10PM (#25438602)
Why would that be better than just shutting off the delivery stack altogether?
Re:Gmail having issues by shmoogy on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @10:23PM (#25438681)
5xx error results in suppression list addition of an email, so future emails won't be delivered (by most ESPs), and not returning MX response would probably be just as bad, or worse (or result in millions/billions of emails being re-queued due to timeouts?)

His solution would result in exponential retry failures baked into most services, which would buy them a few hours, and result in no lost emails, and no suppression list additions.

Re:Gmail having issues by pmlnr on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @04:01AM (#25440418)
Failure of response from the server is nearly always treated as temp failure, because it could be down to network connectivity, name resolution, etc.

That is a better scenario, than 5xx.

Re:Gmail having issues by jeffbee on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @10:25PM (#25438694)
Inability to contact the destination would be treated as a temp-failure by the origin, and taking the service off the air could be effected instantly.
Re:Gmail having issues by octoberfranklin on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @04:37AM (#25440631)
In case less than 100% of gmail is experiencing this bug.
Re:Gmail having issues by jsnell on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:17AM (#25439657)
This outage seems to have lasted for about 2.5 hours. Probably this was fixed by rolling back whatever caused it. (I don't think the rollout was finished before they resolved it; my mail server sends a lot of emails to Gmail addresses, and even at peak I was only seeing maybe about 1/3 mails be rejected.)

There is no way that putting in a hardcored hack like that would have been faster. Making the change is, of course, fast.

But then you need to review it (and this is a super risky change, so the review can't be rubber stamped). Build a production build and run all your qualification tests. (Hope you found all the tests that depend on permanent errors being signalled properly). And then roll it out globally, which again is a risky operation, but with the additional problem that rolling restarts simply can't be done faster than a certain speed since you can only restart so many processes at once while still continuing to serve traffic.

The kind of thing you describe simply can't be done by changing the SMTP server, in 2.5 hours. The best you could get is if there was some kind of abuse or security related articulation point in the system, with fast pushes as required by the problem domain but still with the sufficient power to either prevent the requests from reaching the SMTP server at all, or intercept and change the response.

As a trivial example, something like blocking the SMTP port with a firewall rule could have been viable. Though it has the cost of degrading performance for everyone rather than just the affected requests.

Re:Gmail having issues by BubuIIC on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @09:50AM (#25443145)
This has been going on for 2 days, not 2 hours.
Re:Gmail having issues by jsnell on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @11:11AM (#25444236)
The linked status page shows a 2.5 hour duration.

My mail server logs show about 20 failures in all of the last week until yesterday 20:43 CET, then 350 failures between 20:43-00:21, then nothing after that. So fair enough, from the client side rather than the status page it looks like 3.5 hours rather than 2.5.

But still, given that resolution time, the suggested solution of changing the SMTP server is absolutely ludicrous.

Re:Gmail having issues by petercooper on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:40PM (#25436270)
Yes. I email hundreds of thousands of Gmail users each week (yes, double opt in, they all want the mails!) and we immediately delete any user for whom any Gmail error comes up at all in order to keep a solid delivery record with them. Sounds like we might have deleted 80% of our list if we'd sent today..!
Re:Gmail having issues by com2kid on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:46PM (#25436341)
My sanity tests started acting flaky ~3 hours ago, I never thought it was Gmail...

Kind of happy I had to do something else and I didn't burn hours investigating.

Re:Gmail having issues by dathinab on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @08:41PM (#25438007)
So new think to do: Quarantine addresses instead of deleting them and if for one provider most addresses fail don't give them another (maybe manually triggered) try later one.

(And if no such thing is detected deleted quarantined mail addresses.)

Re:Gmail having issues by webbie917 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:28PM (#25447293)
My guess is that how most email service providers handle this - they don't actually delete the email and just have a flag on it - bounced, complain, unsub. This way the list owner can run an export and see all the status code.
Re:Gmail having issues by ta988 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @06:05PM (#25436587)
Hope you have a backup just in case.
Re:Gmail having issues by petercooper on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @06:10PM (#25436645)
Yes, we're unusual in not relying on third parties for list management. We can rollback. Or I might just comment out the 'unsub on hard bounce' code for the rest of the week..! :)
Re:Gmail having issues by Jap2-0 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @06:20PM (#25436767)
Unsub on two consecutive bounces seems more reasonable to catch flukes (or Gmail going down)?
Re:Gmail having issues by petercooper on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @07:07PM (#25437230)
Yes, most likely! That is a common approach for 'soft bounces' in most list management systems (e.g. MailChimp).

The problem here is Gmail has been throwing out "NoSuchUser" errors which are an instant unsub in most systems because Gmail takes repeated delivery to non-existing addresses into account for deliverability purposes.

I'm extremely paranoid about email hygiene, tiny bounce rates and high delivery rates, so we aggressively unsubscribe troublesome addresses (often to the point of getting reader complaints about it) for many reasons beyond that, however.

Re:Gmail having issues by octoberfranklin on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @08:38PM (#25437981)
> Gmail takes repeated delivery to non-existing addresses into account for deliverability purposes.

I think you mean "reputation purposes"?

If so, wow, that sucks. Their opaque rules have conditioned their counterparties to punish Google as hard as possible for a screwup.

Re:Gmail having issues by MagnumPIG on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @12:47AM (#25439509)
> Their opaque rules have conditioned their counterparties to punish Google as hard as possible for a screwup.

Good for karma, bad for everyone though.

Re:Gmail having issues by petercooper on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @07:39AM (#25441838)
I think you mean "reputation purposes"?

That better describes what I was trying to say, yes. Reputation then affecting deliverability.

Over 80% of our subscribers use Gmail so to say I'm paranoid about maintaining a good record with them is an understatement ;-) Gmail is a huge weak link for us.

Re:Gmail having issues by Jap2-0 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @07:17PM (#25437319)
Ah, thanks for the explanation.
Re:Gmail having issues by mehrdadn on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @06:42PM (#25436985)
Logically you'd expect unsubscribe to only act after lots of bounces of this format when the address has been receiving mail fine before. It also seems reasonable not to trust such bounces for the entire domain for a while when this happens to lots of other addresses that have worked fine before. Not that I expect software currently works this way, but it does seem like a common sense thing to code in.
Re:Gmail having issues by petercooper on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @07:10PM (#25437247)
I mean, it's possible, but you'd need to queue up a day's worth of bounces, do the analysis, and then handle the bounces asynchronously later on to do that.

Most systems operate more immediately in isolation on individual addresses than that right now, because such analysis is generally not needed (until today, of course ;-)).

Re:Gmail having issues by mehrdadn on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @07:13PM (#25437281)
Mail agents already queue emails that bounce though; it's a matter of changing the conditions for when you retry and/or unsubscribe. I imagine you can do the analysis in real time too... just look at the bounce and see if it pertains to an email you sent to in the past, and if so, increment some rolling counter for that domain.
Re:Gmail having issues by octoberfranklin on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @08:37PM (#25437975)
Their SMTP server being unreachable is a 4xx temporary error. The sender MUST keep trying for at least 24 hours, and 72 hours is recommended.

"Gmail going down" would not have caused this problem. Even if all their SMTP servers went offline.

Re:Gmail having issues by organsnyder on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @09:49PM (#25438468)
Yeah, they would have been better off pulling the (metaphorical) plug—maybe block incoming traffic to port 25 or something—until they had this fixed.
Re:Gmail having issues by marvion on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @03:24AM (#25440263)
Mailgun send a warning mail about increased bounces from our account. Sure, they know what's going on... but we send 4-5 digit mails per hour - it's a lot of bounces

That means I can't just resend the the emails blindly, because I'm too scared to trigger some sort of automatic suspension...

(I don't do this regularly, so I'm not familiar with all features... additional mail verification could help probably ....)