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Re:GnuCOBOL 3.1.1 by the_af on Friday December 11, 2020 @01:45PM (#25389127)
At least for me, I criticize from experience: I worked with COBOL, and think it's an awful, unfun language, commonly used for unfun projects. And COBOL jobs don't pay particularly well where I live, either.

> In my country and in Sweden it is quite easy to get good and stable job in banking/insurance/consulting business

Yes, that much is true: a stable job in banking/insurance. Mostly maintaining clunky legacy systems. If that's what you aspire to, and aren't passionate about software -- which is perfectly fine! -- I guess learning some COBOL is a reasonable career choice.

Re:GnuCOBOL 3.1.1 by arabelladonna on Friday December 11, 2020 @02:48PM (#25390022)
> If that's what you aspire to, and aren't passionate about software -- which is perfectly fine! -- I guess learning some COBOL is a reasonable career choice.

This is a completely unfair assessment. Even if you're passionate about something, job stability and good pay are going to be the primary drivers in decisions about jobs. I doubt that most people choose, say, Java jobs because they're passionate about Java, or even software in general, for example.

From what I gather, most people leave the "passion" part of their work to part-time hobby work, allowing them to do both. If it then translates into money, good, but the few successes that have been put on blast have blinded people to the reality that passion != money.

Re:GnuCOBOL 3.1.1 by the_af on Friday December 11, 2020 @03:19PM (#25390427)
Believe me: writing Java is on average more interesting than COBOL (I've done both, including some terrible Java systems using Enterprise Java Beans -- I still shudder at the thought -- and Java still wins). Then again, Java has been called "the next COBOL", so that's an interesting comparison.

> Even if you're passionate about something, job stability and good pay are going to be the primary drivers in decisions about jobs.

For a lot of people, yes. Not for all. And even then, it's hard to argue that COBOL is cool or interesting. It's just paying the bills, but nothing to get hyped or write gushing articles about. And there are more interesting programming jobs that will also pay the bills, anyway.

Re:GnuCOBOL 3.1.1 by arabelladonna on Friday December 11, 2020 @03:23PM (#25390470)
> And there are more interesting programming jobs that will also pay the bills, anyway.

Unless there aren't.

Either way, you're judging people simply for taking a different path than you, which is completely unfair.

Re:GnuCOBOL 3.1.1 by the_af on Friday December 11, 2020 @03:27PM (#25390522)
If there aren't, there aren't. In that case, there's no choice to be made.

I didn't mean to judge people and in fact tried not to, though perhaps clumsily. I said it's fair to not be passionate about the job. Often I haven't felt passionate about it either, or even particularly motivated. And do note I have worked in COBOL, so I understand the need. I just don't like the language and I don't want to see people selling the idea that it's "interesting" or a particularly sound business decision to learn it -- like those articles that occasionally get posted to HN.

Re:GnuCOBOL 3.1.1 by arabelladonna on Friday December 11, 2020 @03:37PM (#25390639)
> I said it's fair to not be passionate about the job.

That's not what you said, though. This is what you said:

> If that's what you aspire to, and aren't passionate about software

Those are completely different sentiments and your original "aren't passionate about software" statement is the statement I took issue with.

Re:GnuCOBOL 3.1.1 by phendrenad2 on Friday December 11, 2020 @03:03PM (#25390215)
I'd argue maintaining clunky legacy systems requires more passion for software. It's easy enough to run off to a startup and make the same CRUD app that's been made 1000x before, but maintaining something that grew organically over decades, that takes craftsmanship.
Re:GnuCOBOL 3.1.1 by the_af on Friday December 11, 2020 @03:14PM (#25390358)
> I'd argue maintaining clunky legacy systems requires more passion for software.

This is one of those things that is easy to discuss in theory, but in practice it doesn't work that way, at least not in most cases. And in my experience working with COBOL at a bank: no, the employees weren't passionate about it. In fact, the only passionate employee was an old guru who wrote assembly code for the bank's mainframe.

You could take it to an extreme, and argue that working with malfunctioning computers, using only BASICA.COM for DOS, writing accounting software and getting paid mere cents for it, requires more passion -- after all, who would want to work like this if they didn't feel passionate about it -- but of course it isn't.

It's great to work in challenging or atypical projects, maybe with tools that are not the easiest or more ergonomical, but there's a baseline of comfort below which you're probably not passionate, just masochistic.

Re:GnuCOBOL 3.1.1 by tubularhells on Friday December 11, 2020 @03:46PM (#25390763)
The only thing in my job that I'm passionate about is my paycheck.

I leave my passion for when I log off the VPN.

Re:GnuCOBOL 3.1.1 by Fnoord on Friday December 11, 2020 @06:25PM (#25393070)
On the long term, having a job you're able to feel passionate about helps a lot.
Re:GnuCOBOL 3.1.1 by galoisgirl on Saturday December 12, 2020 @06:30AM (#25397608)
"Passionate" is usually BS for "has no boundaries and is willing to work overtime for free".

I love my job, and I leave work at work so it stays that way.

Re:GnuCOBOL 3.1.1 by the_af on Saturday December 12, 2020 @07:37AM (#25397861)
Agreed about the general BS meaning of "passion", but in this case I meant "liking software and building things with it". People maintaining legacy corporate systems written in COBOL -- the most common usage of this language -- don't exactly belong in this category. Which, as I said before, is perfectly fine: not everyone has to like software, maybe a job is just a job and you just need the paycheck. But all those recurrent articles praising COBOL somehow manage to forget this...
Re:GnuCOBOL 3.1.1 by Privacy846 on Friday December 11, 2020 @05:32PM (#25392354)
If most of programming is code maintenance, and you think of that as an anti-passion activity, your “passion for programming”—you didn’t state that explicitly, but let’s be real about the implicit comparison you’re drawing here—may be a mirage.