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Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by cityofdelusion on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:35PM (#25367102)
Is there any evidence that signature matching is an accurate way to ensure correctness? As a useless anecdote, my current signature looks _nothing_ like the one on my state issued ID from 10 years ago.

Something that someone else said is quite important here: the time to fix these things is before an election, not afterwards. It doesn't take much imagination to see how invalidating large quantities of ballots after-the-fact is a dangerous road for a democracy. Put the rules and methods in place prior, in a bipartisan way.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by hartator on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @07:14PM (#25367573)
> the time to fix these things is before an election, not afterwards.

Mail-in ballots were not approved by state legislature which what what the constitution defines.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by 22c on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:57PM (#25367373)
> Is there any evidence that signature matching is an accurate way to ensure correctness?

In these cases, I don't think that matters as much as the fact that the laws were not followed.

"Is there any evidence that me abiding by the speed limit would have been any safer?" is not a good defence to accusations of "you broke the speed limit".

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by mindslight on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @07:35PM (#25367814)
> "Is there any evidence that me abiding by the speed limit would have been any safer?" is not a good defence [sic] to accusations of "you broke the speed limit".

Yet another comfortable sounding yet simplistically false untruth. Depending on the jurisdiction, of course.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by 22c on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:14PM (#25368216)
If you'd indulge me, which part of the supposed untruth was blatantly false?

Although I am not sure how fruitful an engagement this will be, given the pedantry[1] you've displayed against users of British English.

[1] https://www.grammarly.com/blog/defence-defense/

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by mindslight on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:22PM (#25368306)
There are states where the posted number isn't actually a hard limit but rather a recommendation of what's considered safe. And so arguing that you were still driving safely despite exceeding the posted limit can be a worthwhile defense. For example: https://malegislature.gov/laws/generallaws/parti/titlexiv/ch...

(I added sic because I don't like propagating misspellings. But I didn't know "defence" was British spelling! Sorry, TIL)

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by 22c on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:39PM (#25368443)
I am sure there are places like that, but I don't think you'd be charged with "exceeding the speed limit" in those places, correct? You would be charged with unsafe driving or something similar, in which case you could make the argument that driving slower would not necessarily have been safer. I believe that is splitting hairs and I am sure you understand the basis of my argument when it comes to election workers following the laws set in place by the legislature.

> Sorry, TIL

Apology accepted and apologies for assuming you were being pedantic about it.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by mindslight on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:56PM (#25368590)
Well charges would simply be the legal citation numbers, and if you look at that link it's indeed titled "speed limits".

I get your abstract argument, but you don't see to be applying it to a specific situation. Is there an actual case that's raising this argument? I've yet to see any cases with arguments that make me worry, so it would be something new.

In general I can't see a signature "verification" law as anything but an attempt at disenfranchisement. Many people have repeatable signatures, and many do not. A signature is not a method of technical verification, but rather legal authorization with a possibility to argue authenticity based on stroke angles etc. If I usually make a half-attempt at writing my name, but sign my ballot with an X, that's legit. The best way to prevent a person from filling out multiple ballots is to make sure everyone votes so there are few unused ballots to steal in the first place.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by 22c on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:51PM (#25369459)
> Is there an actual case that's raising this argument?

There are several cases, but off the top of my head I can give you Trump v. Raffensperger [1] filed in the superior court of Fulton County, state of Georgia. Beginning around paragraph 139 of the petition, you can see arguments that the Trump legal team have brought which talk about various violations of state mandates regarding signatures.

> I can't see a signature "verification" law as anything but an attempt at disenfranchisement

You may argue that these laws or mandates could disenfranchise some voters, but I think it's unfair to suggest that it's their sole (or even primary) purpose.

> make sure everyone votes

Even in countries where voting is mandatory you do not get full voter turnout. There would certainly be enough left over to turn the tide of many elections.

[1] https://www.democracydocket.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/...

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by mindslight on Thursday December 10, 2020 @12:06PM (#25375775)
If I'm reading it correctly, the actual argument put forth there seems to be that three people were checking each signature, rather than a single one (due to a previous consent decree over disenfranchisement). State law certainly doesn't mandate that each registrar has to personally review every ballot themselves. And so just as a registrar can deputize a single employee to do the job, I would think they have the power to deputize multiple people to do the job collaboratively.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by 22c on Thursday December 10, 2020 @11:33PM (#25382329)
I think you may have read from where I linked and then into the following complaint. The complaint supported by paragraphs 139 - 141 is "RESPONDENTS FAILED TO COMPLY WITH GEORGIA LAW PROVISIONS FOR MATCHING SIGNATURES AND CONFIRMING VOTER IDENTITY FOR ELECTORS SEEKING TO VOTE ABSENTEE".

The following paragraphs talk about a different issue (which also happens to relate to signature verification).

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by mindslight on Friday December 11, 2020 @12:14AM (#25382551)
By my reading, 139-141 just factually cite Georgia law. I don't see where it is alleged how the law was specifically not followed, apart from continuing to read into the next complaint.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by 22c on Friday December 11, 2020 @08:48AM (#25385643)
I'm not a legal expert. The petition alleges that "RESPONDENTS FAILED TO COMPLY WITH GEORGIA LAW PROVISIONS MATCHING SIGNATURES" but I believe the arguments to support this would need to be presented in the courts.

You asked me if there was an actual case which raises the arguments that state laws were not followed and I believe that I have provided you with one.

You can also probably look at the recent motion filed by AG Paxton in Texas[1], which similarly makes claims that election officials were processing ballots in an unlawful way.

Whether or not the arguments make you worry doesn't change the fact that both of these cases allege that election laws were broken.

[1] https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/ima...

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by mindslight on Friday December 11, 2020 @12:37PM (#25388337)
I'm not a legal expert either. My understanding is that the heading of each complaint is a summary, and the sections form a progression of supporting allegations.

For example if you read into the next complaint, 142 is strictly factual (which can still be rebutted, but probably won't be), while 145/149 argue why those (factual) actions were unlawful, in support of the complaint's title (the rest are somewhere in the middle, or more handwavey). If you read 142-149, you come away seeing a coherent argument backing up the claim.

But for the previous complaint - it's a claim the law was violated, a citation of the law, and then no supporting argument or evidence detailing how or why the law has been violated. I'm guessing it can be amended or argued verbally, but as it stands it's an unsupported claim.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by 22c on Friday December 11, 2020 @08:51AM (#25385678)
Also, for the record, I have not downvoted any of your comments. I think it's totally fair for people to discuss the merits of these cases.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by dukeofdoom on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:54PM (#25367323)
The Trump team did take this to court before the election, but they were denied on the basis of the "injury" only being hypothetical at that time...

So they couldn't successfully sued before, and now they are told that its too late. Something very dishonest from the courts about that.

Your own personal anecdote confirms that people's signatures change overtime. Hence more should have been rejected.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by sjwright on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @07:57PM (#25368027)
Relying on—and rejecting votes using—a poor method of voter identification is voter suppression.

A signature shouldn't be used for identification matching but rather as akin to the signing of an affidavit.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by dukeofdoom on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:15PM (#25368219)
Accepting votes that do not have matching signatures, is diluting the votes that do have matching signatures. Why should a person that voted in person, in a more secure way, have their votes diluted by a mailed in ballot that does not meet a minimum standard of security, and consequently are much more likely to be fraudulent.

1. Signature match is the minimum filter to prevent outright fake ballots.

2. I believe there was a procedure for rectifying a rejected mail-in ballot. The person still could have voted, if they sent in their ballot on time, and rectified any mistakes.

3. Mail-in ballots are really an assault on the right to a "secret ballot". There really is no guarantee that the mail-in ballot was filled out in secret. An abusive husband could for example coarse his wife to vote a certain way. A union boss, could coarse his workers to vote a certain way...and so on. This has happened in the past.