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Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by 082349872349872 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:17AM (#25345381)
I've been thinking of YouTube as a great deradicalisation tool, because it tends to show that "they" are way more like "us" than we tell ourselves.

Has anyone been thinking of ways to set up deradicalising rabbit holes? I guess the basic problem is "the algorithm" would tend to push viewers away from those kinds of burrows...

Edit: I've been hoping that anti-"authoritarian follower" education might be helpful, as in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24807977

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by TheAdamAndChe on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:24AM (#25345479)
It's not a simple issue to address. People who become radicalized often don't trust the popular narrative, often for pretty legitimate reasons.

If YouTube is too heavy-handed with their attempt to deradicalize, they're likely to just end up untrusted like a lot of media.

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by sneak on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:30AM (#25345562)
Is there any indication that there is some specific acute problem, such as an increase in percentage of society that becomes radicalized/violent, over other times in human history?

Is this a "something must be done!" because it's on the news, or because it's an actual new problem warranting special attention?

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by 082349872349872 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:37AM (#25345653)
The acute problem I see is heavily armed aggro people driving around in heavily-flagged technicals. (albeit Dearborn, not the more commonly found Aichi, technicals)

When the soviets decided that whatever their System was doing, it was not doing what they had been brought up to believe in, they changed it. In russia specifically, wikipedia says 3 people were killed during that change. (Romania was the most violent by far of the Warsaw Pact, with O(1000)) The US has not only stayed in afghanistan for far longer than the USSR, it's clearly had more than 3 people killed in political violence so far, and I am not optimistic enough to think they will get to a system "with liberty and justice for all" without adding any more...

But I am a cynic, so my fingers are crossed that I am wrong.

Edit: the "3 people" are from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d%27état_atte... ; please let me know if I am missing any more violent episodes.

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by yowlingcat on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:58AM (#25345983)
> The US has not only stayed in afghanistan for far longer than the USSR

Don't forget about the US "sojourns" into LatAm! There's lots more where that came from.

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by claudeganon on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:36AM (#25345639)
Yes. Historically, new forms of mass communication have been always been used to stir up insanity and violence, dating back to the invention of the printing press. Wide distribution of Martin Luther's antisemitic screeds led to pogroms across Europe, the Nazis picked up where he left off using the new inventions of film and radio broadcasts, and now violent, racist ideologies are once again gaining mainstream purchase thanks to platforms like YouTube.
Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by sneak on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @10:47AM (#25346771)
Ok, so what are the indications that violent, racist ideologies are spreading faster or to a greater degree today than at other times?

Furthermore, if that is indeed the case, what makes you think that publishing platforms are the cause?

I'm skeptical of the first, and I am doubly skeptical of the latter.

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by claudeganon on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @11:05AM (#25347044)
>Ok, so what are the indications that violent, racist ideologies are spreading faster or to a greater degree today than at other times?

Read the news? There’s been a huge upswing in far right politics dominating democracies worldwide, post-2008. The world’s largest democracy, India, is currently controlled by an explicitly enthnonationalist party whose leader has praised Hitler. The US, Australia, Hungary, Austria, Brazil, Japan, and many others have lurched further rightward.

> Furthermore, if that is indeed the case, what makes you think that publishing platforms are the cause?

In historical terms, there is not ever a single cause, but multiple forces coalescing to push things in one direction or another. Obviously, the 2008 financial crisis and it’s impact on the world economy created a ground that was fertile for all kinds of populism. Because of their long standing alliance with Capital owners, however, the right was better positioned to make use of these technologies as they emerged. You can also read any number of stories about the role that Facebook, WhatsApp, YouTube etc served in successful right wing political campaigns across the world. Google “”WhatsApp Brazil Bolsonaro” or “Trump 2016 Facebook” of you need further insight. It’s pretty much common knowledge at this point.

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by sneak on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @11:17AM (#25347242)
I do not think that reading the news will tell me if these sorts of ideologies are more prevalent or are spreading faster than before, simply that they exist. I already knew that.

Why do you believe that there is some recent new acute problem?

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by claudeganon on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @12:44PM (#25348703)
I don't mean to restate the point, but how else do you arrive at these shifts in world democracies without these ideologies spreading faster or becoming more prevalent? The former happening is contingent on the latter...
Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by rimiform on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @11:06AM (#25347048)
You might be interested in the Global Terrorism Databse (GTD) [1]. I used it for data about terror, but I think it actually has a lot of research into very specific approaches for dismantling terrorist organisations. Not limited to deradicalisation (also contains research into how productive it is to "cut off the head of the snake") but definitely a trove of information.

[1] https://www.start.umd.edu/research

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by 082349872349872 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @11:28AM (#25347419)
Thank you, https://www.start.umd.edu/radicalization-and-deradicalizatio... looks very much like the sort of thing it'll take me a while to digest...
Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by watwut on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:27AM (#25345526)
> Has anyone been thinking of ways to set up deradicalising rabbit holes? I guess the basic problem is "the algorithm" would tend to push viewers away from those kinds of burrows...

Well, music on youtube used to converge toward mainstream. You started with punk or metal and three songs later it was playing easy pop.

I guess that repurposing the same algorithm could work.

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by rimiform on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:45AM (#25345780)
What would we consider a "radical" opinion, though? That always mediates itself through politics. Do you think people will not be angry if YouTube leads people away from EVERY 'radical' political opinion?

You'd get accused of 'silencing' opinions. Dito any social network, especially Twitter. You'd be taking away a medium for people without the ability to get on old mass media networks, which invariably will be people with 'radical' opinions.

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by 082349872349872 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:49AM (#25345846)
I'm not suggesting pushing people away, I'm suggesting attempting to set up an equally attractive (or even more attractive?) rabbit hole that tends to expose people to actual others, rather than just parroting second-hand opinions about those others.

(sorry to repeat myself, but I'd thought YouTube was exactly such a place. The other day I got some yemeni beats, which was certainly nothing I'd have been likely to search out on my own. Obviously —as with TikTok— different tastes can lead to narrowing as well as broadening, however.)

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by rimiform on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @10:49AM (#25346803)
That sounds interesting. I'm not fond of people proclaiming that this desire for increasingly radical media is inherently human, so I'm open to the possibility of a different feedback loop.

Do you have any idea of what that would look like?

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by 082349872349872 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @11:00AM (#25346967)
Not really, that's why I'm asking here.

"Increasing radicalisation" just sounds much more like former-Yugoslavia than former-USSR to me, and I think the latter became former in a much better manner than the former became former.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373042 for the best I've come up with so far. (the Atlantic article covers deradicalisation of actual trained terrorists, essentially by hooking them up)

Footnote 2, although from a fictional source, is pretty much the whole problem with the idea, from a human factors standpoint.

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by ddevault on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:49AM (#25345840)
Breadtube is one such rabbithole.
Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by rimiform on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @11:00AM (#25346968)
I'm subscribed to nearly everyone in that pseudo-group, and I would consider them just as radicalised. If you peruse the comment section of 'How to Radicalise a Normie' by (I think) Innuendo Studios, you'll see a ton of comments talking about how these people used to be radical in the opposite way (e.g. alt-right).

But if you look in the comment section of an alt-right analogue of Innuendo Studios' video (something like "I used to be an SJW"), you'll see the exact same type of comment about how people used to be like the people in the Innuendo Studios comment section.

I've personally been on both sides at one time or another, and I reckon that the 'radical' component stays the same or even increases, even as the attribute of 'left-wing' or 'right-wing' may fluctuate, like a helix of some kind.

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by claudeganon on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:26AM (#25345519)
Given that YouTube's algorithms have been shown to push people toward content with more and more extreme views, I'm not sure why'd you'd think it would ever serve that purpose.

https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3351095.3372879?download=...

It's been running as a defacto radicalization engine for years at this point.

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by rimiform on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:57AM (#25345966)
Isn't there an argument to be made that YouTube has simply improved (perfected?) the algorithm news agencies have been trying to perfect for decades? We all know that sensationalism sells in media, so is the difference between sensational headlines and 'radicalising' YouTube recommendations really a qualitative difference (the latter of which is decidedly sinister and perverse), or just a case of machines outperforming humans?
Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by dragonwriter on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @10:07AM (#25346105)
> difference between sensational headlines and 'radicalising' YouTube recommendations really a qualitative difference (the latter of which is decidedly sinister and perverse), or just a case of machines outperforming humans?

No, the difference is that YouTube doesn't get a free pass; you don't hear “so and so was radicalized on Fox News (or OANN, or wherever)”, but that's not because it doesn't happen, instead it’ll get blamed, if anything, on groups and alternative media that the radicalized individual fell into after being radicalized by something shaped like traditional media.

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by Applejinx on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:32AM (#25345596)
I've seen it do both. I remember the days when it shoved you towards literal Nazis, and then years later I got in a friendship-ending fight with somebody who was far more pilled than I had imagined. Among the wild stuff he was trying to tell me, was the idea that YouTube pushed people towards moderates, and he had a study that was fairly recent.

If this study was anything like accurate, then AT THE TIME it was pushing people very gently towards more moderate YouTubers, in a subtle way. My nazi-adjacent former friend was really upset about this.

Thing is, both he and I remembered and acknowledged the time when it was feeding people extremist views really noticeably. His problem was essentially that it had stopped. I guess my problem is: who stopped it, why, and when are they going to switch back to doing that again?

Re:Christchurch shooter was radicalized on YouTube, New Zeal... by claudeganon on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:40AM (#25345704)
If you have the study, I'd consider it, but second-hand anecdotes from the "nazi-adjacent" aren't really compelling evidence. Google did take some minor steps toward curbing things a year or two ago, but I don't know that anyone has done a comparative analysis of the current and former state of YouTube's recommendation system.