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Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by mschuster91 on Saturday December 05, 2020 @05:29AM (#25313390)
> Ok, basically she is pissed as AI is picking normal language, that people use, and not using the vocabulary that is in vogue on certain political circles. Basically censure, and forced speech.

The thing is: The language that people use is often enough offensive: racial slurs, sexism and other forms of discrimination, plus seemingly innocent "code words" like "globalist".

AI developers should know about these problems and keep them in mind while developing training data for AI models. The consequences of ignoring such bias is continuing discrimination - with the most obvious and low-tech reminder being the "racist soap dispenser" which had only been trained on white people's skin and failed to dispense soap for people of color.

The danger in such discriminatory models is that while it's an annoyance that a soap dispenser does not dispense soap for a person of color, with algorithms running more and more of our daily lives, the impact is way higher: whether being refused credit or affordable insurance rates because an AI "thinks" the applicant is black and living in a black, poor neighborhood is grounds enough for that, or "predictive policing" AIs sending in massive police responses to everyday calls, this directly hits on people's survival without human oversight.

That is why ethics in AI are so important and why "social justice activism" is so desperately needed!

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by tomp on Saturday December 05, 2020 @06:14AM (#25313629)
I think your “social justice” cause(s) would be much better served if you didn’t make up problems where there are none (what’s the issue with “globalist”??) and didn’t project ill intent where there is none (the soap dispenser wasn’t “racist”, it was just “bad”).

It’s just basic intellectual honesty, sorely missing in the SJW circles.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by dash2 on Saturday December 05, 2020 @07:35AM (#25314079)
The soap dispenser clearly didn’t have racist thoughts. But it effectively worked worse for black people, so it has racially discriminatory effects. I don’t think there’s much to argue about here.

Also, I believe it’s best not to accuse your interlocutor of lacking intellectual honesty unless the evidence is very clear. Perhaps they just see the world differently to you.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by tomp on Saturday December 05, 2020 @10:18AM (#25315137)
algorithm is biased => we should fix it is reasonable, but also a misrepresentation of the argument that this whole thread is about, which is more along the lines of algorithm is biased => researchers are racist => the company that employs them is racist => the whole country is racist which definitely is driven more by ideology than reason.

I’m happy about people viewing the world differently and having an honest, good-faith discussion about the issues. But I’ll criticise intellectually dishonest arguments, like the moat-and-bailey you just pulled here.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by mschuster91 on Saturday December 05, 2020 @10:31AM (#25315240)
> researchers are racist

I never argued for that. My point is that researchers (as well as everyone!) have biases, which may manifest in the end as racism or other forms of discriminations. To prevent these biases from manifesting, (AI) ethics experts are needed as oversight.

> the company that employs them is racist

To take the example of the "racist soap dispenser" again: while the individual people who have developed it may not have been racist, they have failed to think outside their biases and ask themselves "can people with non-white skin use the product?". Also, management has failed here, because more diverse staff would have resulted in at least one internal test candidate of color noticing "hey, I can't get soap!".

The result of this lack of diversity and out-of-the-ordinary thinking was that a person of color was rightfully offended at not being dispensed soap. Therefore, the company acted racist even if it never intended to do so.

> the whole country is racist

Just short of half of the country recently elected a President who openly spouted white-supremacist conspiracy theories. For half the people in the US racism is not a dealbreaker for the highest office it has to offer!

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by dragonwriter on Saturday December 05, 2020 @11:05AM (#25315510)
> Just short of half of the country recently elected a President who openly spouted white-supremacist conspiracy theories.

He was elected by the votes of ~27% of eligible voters, and about ~20% of the population, not “just short of half the country”.

You could say it was a little less than half the people who felt it is worthwhile to vote in a system where votes matter so little that getting the most of them doesn't mean you win, but then the story is about alienation from the electoral system more than support or even indifference to racism.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by dash2 on Saturday December 05, 2020 @10:56AM (#25315429)
> Just short of half of the country recently elected a President who openly spouted white-supremacist conspiracy theories. For half the people in the US racism is not a dealbreaker for the highest office it has to offer!

... which is a bit different from saying that half the country is racist. Perhaps they thought the alternative was worse.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by tomp on Saturday December 05, 2020 @11:11AM (#25315563)
> For half the people in the US racism is not a dealbreaker for the highest office it has to offer!

For the other half, sexism isn’t. (Biden selected his vice-president on the basis of sex.)

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by dash2 on Saturday December 05, 2020 @10:25AM (#25315194)
OK, dude - if you really think I'm arguing in bad faith, I will just leave you to it!
Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by htfu on Saturday December 05, 2020 @07:35AM (#25314080)
> what’s the issue with “globalist”??

In a certain context it just means jews. And they didn't write racist soap dispenser, they wrote "racist soap dispenser".

Do look inwards.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by mschuster91 on Saturday December 05, 2020 @07:30AM (#25314060)
> what’s the issue with “globalist”

It's a white-supremacist dog whistle for "jew": https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-how-did-the-term-gl...

> the soap dispenser wasn’t “racist”, it was just “bad”

For a person of color who wants to wash their hand and sees that it dispenses soap for white people but not for them it is yet another piece of everyday racism.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by tomp on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:09AM (#25314261)
I think that “dog-whistle” is a dog-whistle for wokeist people who prefer to insult others as racists instead of making actual rational arguments.

As for “globalist”, I don’t see an issue with criticising globalism and those who promote it, be they Jews or others. Clearly a lot of Jews (in Israel) are very “localist”, and I suppose there are some that are “globalist” as well. So?

Just because a view is also supported by some or other “vile” people (that are almost always a tiny minority, if disproportionately loud and/or salient), doesn’t make that view invalid or immoral.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by dash2 on Saturday December 05, 2020 @07:39AM (#25314101)
Globalist probably can be used as a dog-whistle, but we do need a word for people who support free trade, free migration, borderless finance etc. That’s a quite common position. Indeed, the Haaretz article you link to is considerably more ambiguous than just saying “globalism is a bad word and must be banned “.
Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by mpweiher on Saturday December 05, 2020 @06:46AM (#25313829)
> The language that people use is often enough offensive

Please define "often". And "offensive" (as in to whom). And of course, you also need to factor in whether being offended is justified.

As an extreme counterexample, a deeply racist person would be offended by a mixed couple. And racists on both sides currently are. I see no reason whatsoever to pander to either side on this, so just there being someone who is or claims to be offended is no guide.

If you find "globalist" offensive, then you are the problem. And, the vast majority of Americans are find this type of PC culture and social justice activism offensive, including the vast majority of "marginalized" groups.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/large-majo...

In fact, the only group marginally in favor are white, rich and highly educated. Hmm...