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Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by merpnderp on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @10:34AM (#25277226)
Ethical compared to what? Coyotes eating a cow alive while she laid down in a field to calve, starting with her hind quarters? A killer whale slowly nibbling another whale's calf to death over hours? So how do we measure the ethicality of a cow that has spent most of its life pampered, fed and protected, and in the end goes to a feedlot? How do we score that? What metrics do we use to compare? Because it certainly had a better life than a wolf casually stumbling upon it as a newborn.
Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by JamesBarney on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:48AM (#25278242)
I think one benchmark should be would "is this animal be better off to have never been born than the conditions we let it live in?"

And a second is "how much better or worse is this animals life compared to a similar animal in the wild?"

My personal opinion is anything that doesn't meet the first benchmark is evil. Anything that is between the too is in a gray area. And anything past the second I don't need to feel too concerned about, or I'd describe it as ethical husbandry.

It's clear that there are plenty of chickens whose lives are soo terrible that don't meet the first benchmark and their extinction would be preferable to their current experience

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by merpnderp on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @12:08PM (#25278520)
The first one is easy. Nearly every animal would be better off not being born. Not many animals have an easy fun filled fulfilling life. Most of them spend their days hungry and scared, and their last day is often being eaten alive or some other miserable death.

The second is also easy. Nearly every animal that is farmed has a much better life as livestock than as a wild animal. Want your last day to be a bolt through the brain after getting to gorge on food for weeks, or chased down and your guts ripped out and eaten while you're pinned down in terror?

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by miles on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @12:44PM (#25278980)
> Nearly every animal that is farmed has a much better life as livestock than as a wild animal.

If you were a non-human animal, which life would you prefer?

https://vimeo.com/130694373

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wkPMUZ9vX4

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by merpnderp on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @03:28PM (#25281123)
Hey I'm all for making agriculture humane and to end needless suffering. I'm just saying there's got to be a point on the ethical scale where farmed animals are better off than they would have been in nature. I live around massive cattle operations, and they are absolutely in every way possible better off than a bison wondering the Serengeti. If only because they can drink water whenever they want and never fear a giant croc will drag them into the water to be drowned.

And yes, pig and chicken operations like that should be stopped.

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by moab on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:01PM (#25285218)
> and they are absolutely in every way possible better off than a bison wondering the Serengeti

Why is that, though? I would reckon that most animals on the Serengeti (not Bison, mind you) live out their average lifespan. Sure, some percentage of them are eaten or die to drought, but there is a reason that their average lifespan is 15--20 years, or whatever it happens to be. Compare that with the 5--6 year average lifespan of a factory farmed animal. It is hard to give you a more detailed argument without understanding the real reasons behind your value judgement.

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by JamesBarney on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @12:36PM (#25278877)
Interesting take that whipingnout all eXAa
Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by ralusek on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:54AM (#25278317)
That first metric is highly subjective. There is a growing movement of anti-natalists that believe that having children is immoral, because being born a human is worse than never having existed, and people can't consent to their existence.

I don't think we'll be able to move beyond subjectivity for the morality of this, but I do think we can be more precise.

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by bigbubba on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @12:23PM (#25278727)
Such people, when met in real life face to face, inevitably remind me of Aesop's fable concerning a fox who wanted grapes but couldn't reach them.
Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by BeefySwain on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @01:04PM (#25279244)
Interesting. We tend to feel the same way about those who disagree with that premise.
Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by theonemind on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @08:51PM (#25284300)
It hardly matters. The ethics hold, or they don't.
Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by jpcooper on Thursday December 03, 2020 @08:59AM (#25288850)
In the case, the fox did get to the grapes and verified that they are indeed sour.
Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by bserge on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @03:04PM (#25280870)
The only obvious solution I can think of is every human having a piece of land big enough to support a small farm enough to feed the whole family.

A cow, a goat, chickens, sheep, whatever you want, managed by the family, free range, decent life before being slaughtered.

That seems like it would fit those benchmarks quite well.

It's how it was done in the past, people were self-sufficient when it came to food. Big agriculture companies could provide food for the people and these animals, so they would still exist and be profitable.

The problem is that land is limited, and spreading out would just result in extremely inefficient fuel usage, with all the pollution that entails.

Plus, some would say it would be a pretty inefficient use of man hours, although I think it would be a better, more "natural" life for humans, as well.

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @03:17PM (#25281008)
>It's how it was done in the past, people were self-sufficient when it came to food.

Everything I've read or heard says there was quite a bit of malnutrition and hunger.

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by bserge on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:36AM (#25287593)
Modern technology exists now, though. Back then there was no electricity, no medicine, pesticides, combustion engines, etc.

I know people who have chickens, ducks and vegetable gardens and work full time - indeed, only possible because they simply buy animal feed and have an automatic irrigation system.

It's still and extra hour of work a day, though, not counting harvest and slaughter time.

Of course, that's nowhere near enough to cover their needs.

But in this context, simply getting rid of the garden and having just an animal farm, while buying everything else from big farms makes a lot of sense.

You still get enough food, you still eat eggs and meat, and the animals live happier, longer lives.

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by ahartmetz on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:18PM (#25285326)
Being self-sufficient with food was also what people did for the longest part of their days. I wouldn't want to go back there.
Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by kwk1 on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @06:23PM (#25283181)
Plus regular famines and accompanying social unrest.
Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by ralusek on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:50AM (#25278254)
Wild animals also kill for sport, and rape, and steal, and eat their own babies.

I do think it's important to understand that humans are animals, and that they are not uniquely immoral within the animal kingdom, but the fact that something happens in nature isn't sufficient in order to morally justify it. Humans ARE unique in their capability to reflect on the morality of behavior at a high level.

Where I think your argument is strongest, as I said, is in response to the claims that humans are uniquely malevolent, as if most species aren't constantly maximizing their acquisition of resources within the boundaries of their capabilities. That just doesn't mean that we have carte blanche on all behavior we can observe in nature.

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by 3131s on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:18PM (#25285327)
Why are you even comparing it to life in the wild anyway? These are animals that we're bringing into existence and the alternative is no existence at all.

You clearly have no clue as to the intelligence of these animals and the complexity of their desires beyond being "pampered, fed, and protected". If it were you, would you rather take a chance on surviving in the wild? Or being enslaved, separated from your children, shackled, fattened, and eventually butchered is preferable?

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by svrtknst on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:05AM (#25277650)
why are wild animals only used as an ethical measure tape when it comes to animal consumption?
Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:12AM (#25277724)
What else can we use? We can compare against the natural state (as GP did), which is mostly horror. We can compare against what would happen if we suddenly left these animals to live by themselves - which is even worse, and followed by extinction. We can compare against hypothetically caring about all animals as pets - but that's beyond our logistical capabilities and thus would cause great suffering for both animals and humans.

There is no good measure tape available.

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by badRNG on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:57AM (#25278366)
>There is no good measure tape available.

There's a difference between having moral worth and being a moral agent. Non-human animals (generally) cannot contemplate the ethical character of their actions, so they are not moral agents, nor should we consider them such. This does not mean they are unworthy of moral consideration. What is being evaluated is the ethics of the behavior of people who are moral agents, and there have been guide sticks for the behavior of people for as long as people have been thinking about ethics.

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by j_kao on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:36AM (#25278090)
I don't disagree that animals (cows in this case) in nature (whatever that looks like at this point) do suffer and are constantly under fear of predators.

However, I think saying that there is "no good measure tape available" might be intellectually dishonest since we can probably come up with a rough model to optimize for the minimization of global suffering of all beings involved.

Obviously, most mental models have a higher weight biased for humans rather than animals, so a suffering factor for humans would have a higher multiple than for animals. That is where most of the controversy seems to be.

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by s0rce on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @02:50PM (#25280698)
I'm not an expert but the extinct ancestor of the modern cow, the Auroch was quite a large mammal and at least according to wikipedia [citing van Vuure, T. (Cis) (2005). Retracing the Aurochs – History, Morphology and Ecology of an extinct wild Ox. Sofia-Moscow: Pensoft Publishers. ISBN 954-642-235-5] claims that the main predators were big cats (lions and tigers) and hyenas). Across much of the cows modern range those predators don't exist.

Possibly a wolf, Siberian tiger or large brown bear would predate a cow, similiar to the predators of a moose but it doesn't seem like they are under constant fear of predators any more. Cows are often left to pasture across vast unfenced area of basically wilderness and don't seem particularly afraid nor at risk of predation (otherwise they'd need to be guarded).

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by merpnderp on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:21AM (#25277874)
Hate to quote myself but "How do we score that? What metrics do we use to compare?"
Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by badRNG on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @12:04PM (#25278466)
The answers seem sort of trivial: using the same ethical framework that informs your decision-making process on other ethical questions. Regardless of the unique flavor of one's moral tradition, most seek to limit the suffering of sentient beings.
Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by Jack000 on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @12:20PM (#25278695)
Most mammals have a similar brain architecture. Humans share the limbic system with animals like dogs, cows and pigs. This means these animals have extremely similar subjective experiences of pain, fear, joy and other emotions.

For a consistent framework of ethics, these animals should be treated essentially as lobotomized humans.

Re:Horseshoe crab blood to remain big pharma's standard as g... by klyrs on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @02:56PM (#25280774)
Because our ethics distinguish us in many other aspects of life. Rape, murder and cannibalism are generally frowned upon, we have international laws governing warfare, we're waking up go the destructive nature of our expanding population, we have medical care that generally exists to remediate the sick and wounded, etc etc etc. But slavery and torture are open questions in this millennium, and who would expect us to draw a line for animals where we're reluctant to do so for humans?