News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales by wahern on Thursday November 26, 2020 @04:46AM (#25218449)
The U.S. is exceptionally violent as compared to most other developed countries. There are many contributors to the origins of that culture--frontier mentality, slave suppression, etc--but what's left today is the violence. In middle-class society that tendency toward violence is kept in check by other cultural norms and, arguably, redirected in various ways, such as a harshly punitive penal system, suppression of underclasses, etc. But among the American working class and, especially, the poor, that violence manifests in very direct, brutal ways. My step brother travels the country working at refineries, which tend to be located in impoverished areas, and just the other day we were discussing some of the things he's seen around the country--knife fights, gun fights, and countless bar fights. My dad has more than his fair share of scars from when he traveled from town to town for work. I saw and experienced plenty of things as a child that many Americans, not to mention foreigners from less violent countries, would only expect to see in a movie. All this stuff is mostly hidden from direct view by the middle classes. But if you grew up poor or poor-adjacent, things often look quit different.

In my travels and readings I've found that countries have distinct tendencies toward violence that clearly emanate from their culture, not from objective markers like poverty, income, etc. For example, in the 1990s Ecuador had the lowest homicide rate in the Americas, despite often crushing poverty. In the early 2000s there was a surge of Columbian immigrants in search of work. Columbian culture was far more violent than Ecuador's, much like the U.S. (as opposed to simply a consequence of organized crime), and rates of violence soared. Not because the Columbian immigrants were criminals, but because those who resorted to crime did so in a more violent manner.

But my point wasn't to say that the U.S. is unsafe. Just that what makes a culture (and people) violent isn't superficial behaviors. Guns don't make America violent. America loves guns because we're a violent society. To be clear, we love guns not because we feel we have to defend ourselves, but we because we fetishize the idea of defending ourselves amidst our own violence. Take away the guns and homicides might drop, but the tendency toward violence will simply remain latent, and all the other manifestations of that culture of violence will remain. It doesn't mean we can't become a safer, better society. We have and we are. We'll just follow a different, often trailing path as compared to less violent societies.

If we want our kids to internalize a different set of norms and expectations, it's these subtle cues that we have to watch for, not the artifice. Kids can see through artifice, at least to the extent they haven't internalized the norms the artifice reflects or disguises. They don't need to be protected from video games or gun culture or gore; they need to be taught to recognize our society's preference for conflict over cooperation, for winner-take-all strategies, rather than to let it seep in quietly. Those cues are subtle and pervasive and to some extent exist even within, e.g., Disney's otherwise saccharine world. For example, Disney's woke culture messaging (as well meaning and useful as it is) reflects the narrative of two groups pitted against each other, one right and one wrong, where the latter either needs to be vanquished or converted. Unlike in traditional fairy tales, in American narratives the boogeyman is your nextdoor neighbor, not a troll or a witch. We think we're sending sophisticated, moral, good messages, and we are, but it's not all we're sending.

Re:A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales by WalterBright on Thursday November 26, 2020 @05:14AM (#25218591)
> But my point wasn't to say that the U.S. is unsafe.

But when you say the US is "exceptionally violent" that is indeed what you're saying.

> they need to be taught to recognize our society's preference for conflict over cooperation, for winner-take-all strategies,

Oh come on. This just reads like selection bias. Just drive to work some day, and look at all the cars cooperating so the traffic smoothly flows. They go to work, and cooperate with the people at the workplace, cooperate with their suppliers, cooperate with their customers, and pretty much everyone they interact with all day, every day.

The winner-take-all mentality is in organized sports, which are specifically designed for that, and those are in every country. (And even then the teams have to cooperate with each other, and cooperate with other teams on rules and schedules.) But not much in other activities. Humans would all literally die in short order if we don't cooperate.

Thought I'd throw in this thought:

Free markets are based on voluntary cooperation. Socialism is based on forced cooperation. I can't even think of a functioning system based on non-cooperation.

Re:A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales by throwaway56034 on Thursday November 26, 2020 @06:07AM (#25218876)
>But when you say the US is "exceptionally violent" that is indeed what you're saying.

Compared to present countries, not the past, the US indeed is exceptionally violent, especially given the wealth in the country.

* Homicide rate is among the highest of all OECD countries, for example: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5?location...

* The US still has legal capital punishment.

* The whole approach to the penal system being very revenge-based, resulting in very high incarceration rates etc.

* The prevalence of sexual violence, e.g. compare the US with Canada: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health...

Re:A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales by WalterBright on Thursday November 26, 2020 @05:59PM (#25224159)
> Homicide rate is among the highest of all OECD countries

First off, what is and is not an OECD country is selection bias right from the start. "Among" the highest is subjective as well, and it's far from the highest. Next, the US is a large and diverse country. There are some neighborhoods with very high homicide rates (in Chicago, for example). This is not at all representative of the rest of the country, but it averages into the statistics.

The TV series "Sons of Anarchy" is certainly entertaining, but has nothing to do with reality in the US.

The homicide rate is still very, very low compared to deaths from other causes. It doesn't even rate a mention in lists of deaths from causes. I wouldn't characterize that as "exceptionally violent".

> The US still has legal capital punishment.

28 states have capital punishment, 22 do not. In 2019, 22 people total were executed. While this is 22 too many and it needs to stop, it is statistically insignificant compared to the population of 328,000,000.

> The whole approach to the penal system being very revenge-based

I agree with that, but don't agree it makes society violent.

> The prevalence of sexual violence

I clicked on the reference, expecting to see rates of conviction for sexual violence. It's not there.

Re:A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales by saiya-jin on Thursday November 26, 2020 @06:15AM (#25218920)
Things aren't binary in real world. When you compare how ie Europe works, the differences are there and in similar vein as highlighted.

American society is brutal in many respects. It is truly winner-take-all and rest be damned, you should have tried harder. Be it medicine (you either can afford it or are screwed - unimaginable for any european country), education (public universities are almost/totally free everywhere), penal system etc.

I find it interesting how US top 1% succeeded to persuade the remaining 99% of the population that this is best system for them, when clearly it isn't. Not if you want the best place for your kid to grow up and be given fairest and best chances and have a good safe life. I guess Hollywood helped, but rather than contemplating some conspiracy it seems to me its more some sort of self-fulfilling myth.

We know class mobility is largely a myth, and US society is deeply divided into classes based on money. And as for violence - its there on more noticeable levels than across the pond.

Re:A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales by jahaja on Friday November 27, 2020 @03:12AM (#25226506)
> Free markets are based on voluntary cooperation.

Indirect coercion due to lack of the means of subsistence is not voluntary.

> Socialism is based on forced cooperation.

It's not. Socialism is not Stalinism.