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Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by brendoelfrendo on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:17PM (#25193627)
That is illegal according to US law. At my company, we are explicitly taught the opposite: paying "facilitation fees" is prohibited and illegal and that the employer will fire you and throw you under the bus if they find out you did so. They explicitly mention that this is not allowed even if it is the norm in the country in which you are doing business.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by crx07 on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:59PM (#25193973)
I have never heard of a major company that didn't advise its employees to pay bribes abroad.

Whether it's legal or illegal is almost aside the point, someone can choose between either breaking some arcane, unenforced US law, or potentially spending months/years in some hellhole of a third-world jail or prison while the Embassy slowly negotiates a release. And in some places, that's assuming someone doesn't just "disappear" or get robbed and shot on the spot.

It'd often be better to get fired and federally charged than to risk what your company advocates. In a worst case scenario, at least you know what you're getting, at least you'll have competent legal defense, and at least there will be a high -- virtually unprovable -- standard of evidence required for a federal jury to indict.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by Sylamore on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @01:13AM (#25195807)
Every Fortune 100 company I've worked for has annual training that stresses the companies no-bribes no matter the reason policy.

Then we get pulled over in Mexico with a VP with us and it's a totally different reality on the ground.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by ponker on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @02:11AM (#25196093)
The company doesn’t want you to not pay bribes — they just want to be able to say that they told you not to if you get caught.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by jariel on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @01:38AM (#25195927)
So there's a difference between paying off the cop for a speeding ticket, and bribing the Minister of Resources for a contract.

Most companies want you to pay the cop to not take you to jail on fake charges.

The don't want you to pay the M. Resources (or at least not officially).

International Conglomerates keep 'Sunshine Funds' - i.e. money off the regular books in overseas accounts for this activity.

It's part of doing business in 1/2 the countries around the world, literally impossible to do business without it.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by newacct583 on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:11PM (#25194067)
> I have never heard of a major company that didn't advise its employees to pay bribes abroad.

That would be conspiracy. No, absolutely this does not happen. Now, at the micro level it does happen that individual executives rope their employees in to fraud at their direction. But absoutely no "company" anywhere "advises" its employees to pay bribes as a matter of policy.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by chmod775 on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:25PM (#25194163)
I think most companies would prefer their employees not go missing in some African hellhole or get incarcerated on bullshit charges wherever.

There's little difference between bribes and highway banditry in some places, and not playing along will very likely not end well for you.

Recourse in cases of abuses of power is already hit-and-miss in so-called "civilized" countries. I wouldn't count on it in countries that can't even agree on who's in charge somewhere.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by crx07 on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:36PM (#25194273)
People are actually downvoting my post (and the one where someone confirmed that this happened at three Fortune 100 companies).

It's one thing to be a boy scout, but it's another entirely to get accused of severe, frivolous charges while abroad, or to drive up to an armed cartel/militant roadblock, and then say "I'm sorry, bribes are against corporate policy and illegal in my country" when asked for $50.

Shame on any company for creating a clause like that and risking their employees lives instead of just remaining silent on the matter. Make no mistake, bribery isn't optional in many parts of the world, it's a robbery by a uniformed official.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by kelnos on Monday November 23, 2020 @09:13PM (#25194530)
I think people in the overall thread are getting confused about different kinds of bribes.

A bribe needed to get a lucrative contract for your company: not ok.

Paying off a local cop so he won't throw you in jail for no reason: totally ok.

The US is concerned with preventing the former, not the latter. I would be surprised if any US company is advocating people pay the first kind of bribe, at least publicly, as that's quite illegal in the US (I'm sure it happens, but as quietly as possible). But I would not be surprised if US companies tell employees to pay the second kind of bribe, as well they should.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by ALittleLight on Monday November 23, 2020 @10:05PM (#25194838)
This thread reminds me of John McAfee's bribery guide http://www.whoismcafee.com/the-travel-guide/
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by HeWhoLurksLate on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @02:03AM (#25196055)
That was an interesting and mind-numbingingly depressing read at the same time
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by FireBeyond on Monday November 23, 2020 @09:32PM (#25194642)
Absolutely. This is a good point.

Courtside tickets to an NBA game? Not okay.

"Your vehicle does not have the permits. You need to come with me" at gunpoint in sub-Saharan Africa? That's a matter of life and death, potentially.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by FireBeyond on Monday November 23, 2020 @09:30PM (#25194634)
You are entirely incorrect. One of the largest mining, minerals and petroleum companies in Australia has it right there in the employee handbook sitting on your desk on Day One.

So lets dial back the absolutes, huh?

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by zorpner on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:16PM (#25194109)
Yes, this happens frequently. They are termed "facilitation payments" rather than bribes, they are budgeted and accounted for as expenses, and the official direction of briefing materials at at least three Fortune 100 companies (that I know of) directs people to pay them.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by consumer451 on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:54PM (#25194395)
I am not sure why you were being downvoted, exactly. While there is a difference between the two terms, it seems like an area that firms could easily fudge, until someone actually investigated the specific case.

> What is the Difference Between Bribery and Facilitation Payments?

> Facilitation payments are different from bribes in that they’re offered or solicited in return for a service a person or a company is entitled to receive. In contrast, bribes are offered in return for undue and illegal advantage. [0]

Do we know if these executives were deserving of the CCP? It would appear they were, from the post’s link:

> Sung—second in rank only to Sheriff Laurie Smith in the sheriff’s office—is accused of deliberately holding back four concealed carry weapons (CCW) permits for Apple’s security team until the Cupertino-based corporation agreed to donate 200 iPads worth about $75,000 to the Sheriff’s Office, Rosen said. Sung and Jensen allegedly worked together to solicit the exchange of CCW permits for the tech donation from Apple.

The much larger corruption seems to be on the LEO side to me. Which of the two actors swore an oath to uphold the law?

If it wasn’t for clickbait, the headline would focus on the LEO.

[0] https://www.ganintegrity.com/compliance-glossary/facilitatio...

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by jbuzbee on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:33PM (#25193767)
There's a difference between a bribe to win a contract or similar vs. the case where you feel in danger - e.g. you come across a roadblock in rural Mexico and an armed official wants a "clear up your paperwork" payoff to let you pass. That's the scenario the training covers.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by temp667 on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:37PM (#25193818)
Exactly, and it's clearly permitted to pay in that case because being able to travel involves routine govt action. I have no idea where this legal advice is coming from.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by zaroth on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:55PM (#25193951)
> routine govt action

Like issuing a concealed-carry permit to a non-felon ex-Navy corporate executive.

OP describes a ransom, not a bribe. Charge the govt official who demanded the ransom, not the citizen entrapped in the scheme.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by moftz on Monday November 23, 2020 @10:39PM (#25195041)
Except most of these guys either paid the bribe or had it ready to go until they heard sirens. These guys could have easily reported the solicitation but instead they participated in it. This isn't the case where a cop is threatening to throw you in jail or plant drugs on you unless you pay up right now, this is a state permit process. No one had their life or freedom directly threatened over not having more CCW permits for their security team.

The sheriff deputies fucked up. The CCW applicants fucked up. Everyone got caught and everyone is going to suffer the consequences.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by LorenPechtel on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @04:58PM (#25203423)
Reporting it would have meant no chance of getting the permits. I am not going to fault anyone who plays along with a facilitation payment even when it's the US government demanding it.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by reaperducer on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:47PM (#25193897)
I have no idea where this legal advice is coming from.

From the usual IANAL crowd: "I saw it on the internet, so it must be true."

And if you're an actual lawyer, internet rules dictate that anything you know is trumped by a Wikipedia link.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by brigandish on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:13PM (#25194078)
To be fair, the Wikipedia pages on law that I've read are quite good (IANAL, just interested), probably because they rarely touch on politics.

Or, perhaps it's that those editors who distort other areas of the wiki to fit their political biases aren't interested in law. It could be either or both (or neither, but I'm biased towards myself;)

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by throwawaygh on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:12PM (#25194070)
I have seen both in training, but in different contexts.

jbuzbee is referring to international travel training you go through if you apply to travel to/through a "red"/"restricted" country. They are not referring to the generic "don't take a bribe for a contract" training.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by kelnos on Monday November 23, 2020 @09:08PM (#25194489)
IANAL, but I think a general rule of thumb is: will this bribe get me out being detained against my will (or worse) for doing nothing wrong? If yes, then it's ok. But: if I don't pay this bribe, the only consequence will be that my company doesn't win this contract -- that's not an ok bribe to pay.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by acituan on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:20PM (#25194131)
> That is illegal according to US law.

Not always. If the local laws don't classify it legally as bribe you can pay it and even claim it on your taxes as cost of doing business.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by garmaine on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @01:42AM (#25195946)
This is incorrect. It's classified as a "grease payment", not a bribe. It's explicitly allowed under the FCPA.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by temp667 on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:30PM (#25193748)
"That is illegal according to US law."

Can I ask if you are an attorney - because this is absolutely 100% false. You are spreading misinformation here.

If your employer fires you for paying a facilitation fee to advance a routine govt action or travel then you should absolutely sue them.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by leecb on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:45PM (#25193875)
> The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act of 1977 is a United States federal law that prohibits U.S. citizens and entities from bribing foreign government officials to benefit their business interests.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by closeparen on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:00PM (#25193982)
> Regarding payments to foreign officials, the act draws a distinction between bribery and facilitation or "grease payments", which may be permissible under the FCPA, but may still violate local laws. The primary distinction is that grease payments or facilitation payments are made to an official to expedite his performance of the routine duties he is already bound to perform