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Re:Mozilla DNS over HTTPS (DoH) and Trusted Recursive Resolv... by LinuxBender on Thursday November 19, 2020 @10:10AM (#25150273)
Maybe so, but that is my choice. It is my home and my network. I can choose to protect my guests and they can choose to get a VPN. I would not subject them to my ISP's DNS, nor would I subject them to centralized DNS. Both are equally dangerous in my view. I would always disclose to my guests what they are using, how to use it and what choices they have. The people implementing DoH in the browser are taking that choice away, so now my only option is to play the never ending game of whack-a-mole with the centralized DoH servers.
Re:Mozilla DNS over HTTPS (DoH) and Trusted Recursive Resolv... by shawnz on Thursday November 19, 2020 @10:13AM (#25150301)
I do not think that it is fair to say that changing a default is equivalent to taking a choice away. They are only moving the choice from the network operator's hands directly into the user's hands, which is where I think it belongs (and where it really was in the first place). In the hands of the user whose device is actually establishing the connection.

You could block your guest's VPN connections, but you don't do that.. why not? Aren't they subverting your protection by using VPNs?

> nor would I subject them to centralized DNS. Both are equally dangerous in my view.

I would argue that large providers like Cloudflare are the only ones who realistically have the resources to stand up to threats like government intervention (where it is possible). They have strong legal and financial incentives to maintain their privacy guarantees which smaller providers don't have.

Also you have the advantage of your data "hiding in plain sight" due to the high volume they deal with.

I certainly wish there were more providers available than just Cloudflare and Google though.

Re:Mozilla DNS over HTTPS (DoH) and Trusted Recursive Resolv... by LinuxBender on Thursday November 19, 2020 @10:25AM (#25150423)
I do not think that it is fair to say that changing a default is equivalent to taking a choice away

For my technical friends, that would be true. They can adjust their settings and be on their way. I won't block their choices aside from intercepting requests to the ISP DNS.

Most of my friends are not technical, have no idea how to tweak the settings in their browser and would not know they even need to care. So I think it is fair to say that a choice is being taken away. It isn't like browsers are going to prompt people and explain what is occurring. The masses will experience centralized DNS without any idea this is happening. I think we will fundamentally disagree here.

You could block your guest's VPN connections, but you don't do that.. why not?

My guests can choose to use a VPN if they wish, I would not take that choice away. That is an intentional move to protect their traffic. DoH is not an intentional choice. They did not choose this. If a technical friend chooses a DoH server, their laptop won't work and I will explain, if I had not already, that DoH servers are blocked. Anyone that knows me, would expect this behavior. Anyone that is my friend would accept this. We probably just have very different circles of friends.

Re:Mozilla DNS over HTTPS (DoH) and Trusted Recursive Resolv... by shawnz on Thursday November 19, 2020 @10:29AM (#25150464)
I actually would support the idea of a prompt. In lieu of that, I prefer default-on to default-off, but I think I could agree that a prompt would be the best option.

Although if the only concern is that Firefox defaults to a poor choice (in your opinion), why not just block Firefox's default specifically? Why other public DoH servers too? Or why not just block the Firefox DoH canary domain which prevents it from defaulting to DoH unless the user specifically turns it on?

Re:Mozilla DNS over HTTPS (DoH) and Trusted Recursive Resolv... by LinuxBender on Thursday November 19, 2020 @11:36AM (#25151186)
I would just block the DoH used by Firefox, but at the moment, nobody has really proven out the DoH/DoT solutions in the OS and browsers. Until such a time that users are made aware and given choices from both their OS and browsers, I choose to treat all of them as hostile in my own home network. I see the users as frogs in luke-warm water. Both ISP's and centralized DNS providers can choose to boil them once critical mass is reached. Some ISP's have already boiled some frogs, but this is limited to specific ISP's and specific countries. The DoH providers are in a position to boil ALL the frogs globally once everyone has forgotten about DoH and/or critical mass is reached.

At work, we already control these settings in the browser and can easily control any future settings in the OS so it is not an issue there.