News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by hliyan on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @09:43PM (#25145638)
I'm coming to the realization that misinformation has to be combatted at the ear and not the mouth. I feel the world needs to go through a learning period where everyone realizes that whatever they read on the Internet is default false and they need to verify before they believe anything. In the least they need to verify credibility of sources, if not individual articles or tweets. I suppose what we're experiencing now is the pain of that learning period.
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by taneq on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @10:55PM (#25146047)
Trusting sources and verifying information is actually an incredibly hard game. Being too credulous leaves you open to misinformation, but on the other hand, being uncritically skeptical leads to the current "fake news" environment where (to those involved) no source is credible and we might as well all just believe whatever meets our preconceptions and dismiss the rest.
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by somesortofsystm on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:46AM (#25147832)
One should only trust named, identified sources. The age of anonymous sources in mainstream media needs to end, because an anonymous source is not a source.

Yes, sources should be protected. But there should be mechanisms in place to protect sources who identify themselves that do not require the gullible public to just believe what they were told, because an authority said it was okay to believe something an anonymous person said about something.

Maybe this is something that the crypto/cert folks should address - a means of verifying that a source has been properly and adequately identified, without revealing the details required to target that individual for harassment/assassination/etc.

A media clearing house for sources, or a blockchain ...

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by raxxorrax on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:09AM (#25148316)
But we also had the Russian election manipulation talk without any named source and evidence and it was widely believed.
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by somesortofsystm on Friday November 20, 2020 @05:31AM (#25159120)
I categorize that situation as mass hysteria, personally, another mutation of the 'red-baiting' McCarthy'ism that hasn't escaped American culture, which needs enemies to justify its trillion dollar investment in death machines. It served mostly as a mechanism for Americans to deflect from the real issues with their election: the Democrats fielded a corrupt, criminal candidate who could not defeat an also-corrupt, despicable ex-reality TV star. So, blame Russia.

And therefore, a perfectly good example for why people should demand sources be revealed when it comes to issues of state election security.

Otherwise, we will continue to be ruled by duplicitous subterfuge instead of verifiable facts.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by colordrops on Thursday November 19, 2020 @01:28AM (#25146801)
Do you have a suggestion or thesis? It's not so hard that it couldn't be taught to average humans. Even if it was extremely hard, it should still be taught, considering its importance.
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by tsimionescu on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:34AM (#25147099)
The problem is that, for many topics, there just isn't a reliable source to go to. Sure, if you want information on scientific topics, you have very good options - go to one of the celebrated journals and read some papers, or at least the press releases from those same journals. When it comes to current domestic affairs (has there been massive election fraud in the US? is ANTIFA terrorizing the US?) then the mainstream media is a trustworthy source.

However, if you want to know about the effects of NAFTA, or US policy on Venezuela and how useful it is, or Russian involvement in the US elections, or trickle-down economics, or the benefits of a stimulus package etc, then the NYT, the Economist, and Breitbart are about as likely to give you a trust-worthy picture. So where can you look to, as an average citizen without time to conduct your own research on each topic you potentially care about? I don't think there is any good answer.

Society absolutely needs a new independent, small-scale, un-elitist media. "Factory journals" and such - small organizations that are not owned by any powers that be, where a few people can spend the time to digest other sources and try to come up with a more accurate picture. Not multi-million dollar ad-based industrial media (NYT), and not activist propagandist media (Breitbart) - that is always going to be far too heavily biased to have any hope of being a trust-worthy source of information on most topics that they can feasibly ignore.

And in case you don't believe me that most US media is a horrible source of information on the outside world, please find one single article on the biggest worker's strike in world history, that happened in January of this year in India.

Edit: to be clear: I'm not in any way claiming that Breitbart is a credible news organization to any extent similar to the NYT or Economist. Breitbart are a disgusting organization whose aim is misinformation, and lying comes naturally to them; the NYT and Economist and others like them do have journalistic practices and actually care about the truth, and are excellent sources for some kinds of news - they just have massive biases in certain other areas, especially on foreign and economic policy, where they are not trustworthy, but even then I wouldn't expect outright lies.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by jrumbut on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:41AM (#25147465)
I really agree with your point that you need to have a way to know what to believe and that there are serious blind spots.

But I think a small, un-elite media is exactly where the problem is right now. All these blogs and YouTube channels that wants to spread the truth, then discover you can make money pushing conspiracy, have actually been crowding out actual journalistic organizations that have actual reporters.

To me, they are the spiritual successors of the small journals which would have great original reporting on local labor or environmental issues and would also casually report on medical myths and other pet causes of the authors.

I'm not sure what the answer is though and I think you're making some great points here.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by tsimionescu on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:39AM (#25148133)
> But I think a small, un-elite media is exactly where the problem is right now. All these blogs and YouTube channels that wants to spread the truth, then discover you can make money pushing conspiracy, have actually been crowding out actual journalistic organizations that have actual reporters.

> To me, they are the spiritual successors of the small journals which would have great original reporting on local labor or environmental issues and would also casually report on medical myths and other pet causes of the authors.

These are very good points, that I'll have to think about more.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by zo1 on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:43AM (#25147475)
The mainstream media is a trustworthy source regarding election fraud and Antifa's terrorist activities? And "Breitbart are a disgusting organization whose aim is misinformation"?

It's not so much that the main stream media outlets lie about facts. They misrepresent them because they have a bias and a specific opinion on matters that it's so obvious to anyone that isn't on the left. Which is why people flock to other sources such as Breitbart, which at the very least, spins and interprets the events/info with a right-leaning worldview.

The overarching problem is that journalism has become a forum of opinion rather than facts + helping readers understand complex topics by digesting it for them. And it's no wonder we're becoming polarized, because we pick the "opinion" we like, rather than being given the facts and going with it, regardless from which source we get it.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by tsimionescu on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:38AM (#25148125)
The left actually has the same criticisms of the mainstream media as the right does, though usually on other subjects. The media in the US has an extreme centrist position on most issues, leaning to the right on foreign policy and immigration (with no exceptions), but to the left on social issues (with notable exceptions such as Fox News).

I stand by my characterization of Breitbart though - they absolutely knowingly lie about facts. I would also add that you know that your political view is extreme far right when you start calling The Economist "left-leaning".

And I don't think that journalism, especially in the mainstream, has ever been more than an opinion & public relations (propaganda) piece. News organizations are usually owned by rich owners and financed by rich corporations through ads, and so can't stray too far from the mainstream capitalist right-wing/centrist view on most issues of consequence for their sponsors. It happens that lately, corporate America and the rich have generally become much more open on social issues, so you see that reflected in the press.

But you'll be hard pressed to find a mainstream journal or news organization that shares the left's more extreme beliefs on economic issues (e.g. pro unionization, shorter work week), and extremely hard pressed to find any news organization that is against armed support for Israel, that is against the coup attempt in Venezuela, that is against US support for Saudi Arabia, that is for US nuclear disarmament, that is against escalation of the conflict with Russia etc.

Note: if you want to see left-leaning media, look at The Jacobin for example - you'll probably be shocked at how vastly they differ from the NYT. Here is an example: https://jacobinmag.com/2015/05/the-new-york-times-goes-to-wa...

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by netsharc on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:37AM (#25148488)
> I stand by my characterization of Breitbart though - they absolutely knowingly lie about facts.

I can agree, once I did my own research and found them misrepresenting facts; during the refugee crisis, a Breitbart headline said something along the lines of "x hundred thousand crimes committed by refugees in Germany". I looked at the source/googled the number and found the source government press release, it was the number of people entering the country without permit, of course that's against the (German) law, but a refugee has to per default do this to enter somewhere and claim refugee status (unless they're the kind of refugee that could get plane tickets to a destination country willing to issue them entry visas -- but surely no EU embassy thought "Ah here are some Syrians wanting to visit as tourists for a week, give them visas.").

Obviously the Breitbart article didn't mention this detail, leaving the details of the "crimes" committed to the imagination of their readers...

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by Miraste on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:13PM (#25155002)
> It's not so hard that it couldn't be taught to average humans.

What makes you believe this? I can't think of a time in history when the average person could critically evaluate information successfully.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by taneq on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:36AM (#25147109)
Not really. It's hard in the "NP hard" sense, not the "calculus is hard" sense. We don't have answers and there probably aren't any.

The best you can do is cross-reference everything you know, take into account the degree to which you can verify each thing independently, and try and come up with some correlations between different sources to establish a web of credibility.

Unfortunately, experience has shown that regular humans just don't do this.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by lobotryas on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:40AM (#25147792)
You act as if there is a singular truth that can be divined from any set of circumstances. You and I can review the same set of events and even if we agree on the facts come to different conclusions. Does that mean you did something wrong just because I disagree with you?
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by colordrops on Thursday November 19, 2020 @10:26AM (#25150430)
No, I'm not suggesting there is a single truth. I'm suggesting that people think critically and keep an open mind that perhaps they are wrong or don't know the whole picture.
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by cannedslime on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:21AM (#25148391)
I feel like if media didnt seem conglomerated and opinionated, none of this would ever have been an issue. The problem is that globally, media has become aligned in its objectives, languages etc. to the point where anyone with just a shred of critical thinking would at least be skeptical about the quality of truth from mass media.

This is partly because american NGOs have orchestrated a huge indoctrination effort among journalists on a global scale. I have worked for national media for a little under a decade and every place I worked, there was journalists participating in stuff from "open societies foundation".

The quality of journalism has reached such a low that when tourists are group raped for hours and then are finally decapitated by religious fanatics (Any other description would not be allowed in media anymore, but you know who) who film and put it on the internet. they use terms like "Found with injuries on their neck". And then our police and media do everything they can to stop the real horrific truth from surfacing. No wonder people stop believing a word and become overly skeptical.

Honestly I think its a sign of health that people become skeptical regarding mass media. It would be even healthier if the general populace started to dismantle the power structures that dictates our dystopian future.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by raxxorrax on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:56AM (#25148229)
This was the perspective that set the course for current actions, but the situation got worse.
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by chroem- on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @11:03PM (#25146103)
How should we handle misinformation from official sources? It wasn't that long ago the New York Times told the world they had evidence of Saddam Hussein possessing weapons of mass destruction, setting off a chain of events that literally killed hundreds of thousands of people. In today's political climate, the misinformation that led to the Iraq War could never have been exposed.

Edit: surely I'm not the only one who remembers how the NYT almost singlehandedly started a war based on false reporting?

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by ohthehugemanate on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:40AM (#25147462)
Keep remembering and reminding people, please. Also the political backers, including the new president-elect and many of the talking heads currently employed by the "left" side of the media spectrum. I know they're considered good guys now, but they did much worse than the current crop of bad guys ever managed.

David Frum, Bill Kristol, Nicole Wallace, and General Michael Hayden are now MSNBC and #resist heroes. James Clapper and John Brennan are on CNN payroll as talking heads. At least the orange guy and his particular complicit press never passed a Patriot Act, didn't start any warrantless kidnapping/detainment/torture/execution programs, or mass surveillance programs against their own people, and didn't start any wars. More than I can say for NYT, CNN, et al.

The "official" outlets are populated by former CIA/NSA/FBI, and similar people with a documented history of lying (even to Congress) to protect abuses of constitutional and even human rights. In that context it's very hard to trust ANY information source, especially algorithmically. I don't know how to write a program that recognizes these people who were liars yesterday are now the good guys.

So yes, please keep remembering and remind people. Large parts of the current problem rest on a bed of forgetfulness.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by chordalkeyboard on Thursday November 19, 2020 @12:50AM (#25146638)
Is there even a way to vet information from official sources?
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by raxxorrax on Thursday November 19, 2020 @09:27AM (#25149774)
Yes, requesting evidence. If they say it is secret, you should conclude the info is false because it very likely is. If there is strategic need to hold it secret, which would probably be < 1% of cases, the public needs a trustable delegate witness. How much trust the witness has is decided by the public.
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by chordalkeyboard on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:18PM (#25153240)
playing devil's advocate here: If they need evidence, they can just manufacture some, and you're not going to be the one who inspects it. a chosen expert is going to inspect it and go on television assuring everyone "yes this is genuine evidence." all they really need is the video of the expert and maybe a .pdf that 1% of us will read (and be unable to vet its claims).

The various members of the public may have different opinions on the trustworthiness of the witness which means that the government can just make sure that whatever action they are taking is to the benefit of one of these groups and surf on their approval.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by redis_mlc on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:01AM (#25146947)
This is not well-understood by most people, even at the time.

Saddam Hussein did have a "weapon of mass destruction", poison gas, and used it on Kurds. You can find photos of bodies with white foam from their mouths from that time.

He did not have much, if any, nuclear technology, despite the "aluminum tubes" news clips which led to the concern over weapons of mass destruction. (There are specialized alloys used in nuclear processing, but not aluminum.)

Aside from that, the main information source was an exiled Iraqi politician that the administration said was credible to construct their narrative.

So Saddam Hussein went from a US ally, to a war criminal.

One major US newspaper tried to push back, but the rest, including the NYT, just repeated everything the White House said.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by throw2011190740 on Thursday November 19, 2020 @09:29AM (#25149802)
Well, even more recently there have been revelations that one of their sources about the Syrian war has been just some guy who made up all of his story. https://globalnews.ca/news/7350363/rcmp-arrests-abu-huzayfah...

With their recent breaking story of Donald Trump $750 tax, I've been reading through their published article, but have not found any solid evidence for this proposed figure, only just a bunch of links to their previous articles in past years. If anyone can find some actual evidence for the $750 tax bill from the NYT report, I would very much like to see it https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/29/us/trump-750-taxes.html

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by old-gregg on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @09:46PM (#25145662)
> I feel the world needs to go through a learning period where everyone realizes that whatever they read on the Internet is default false

The world had 50+ years to learn this about the TV, but didn't. Don't hold your breath.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by wizardforhire on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @10:34PM (#25145928)
Not only this and the parent comment is also correct but this is the lesson that civilization will continually have to deal with every generation ad nauseam. This is our time and our struggle and how we handle this and all the issues afoot will set the course for humanity.

We as a species and our societies by proxy are self actualizing kicking and screaming.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by toolz on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @10:20PM (#25145847)
It might be counter productive to think it'll get better if people can just assume social media sites will ban/flag misinformation correctly. Maybe only lower profile stuff will slip through, but the volume of misinformation will barely change I suspect and users that haven't learned how to train their own filter might be more likely to believe "unflagged" content.
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by bori5 on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @11:19PM (#25146192)
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by Thorrez on Thursday November 19, 2020 @12:55AM (#25146662)
I don't really see how this is very similar.
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by frankbreetz on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @10:21PM (#25145855)
There is more gate keeping for TV, therefore less false information. Anyone can post on Twitter or Facebook.
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by nso95 on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @10:40PM (#25145968)
Have you ever seen Fox news? Any infomercial? Reality tv?
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by hliyan on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:37AM (#25147119)
I have to agree. The illusion of gatekeeping is far worse than a complete absence of it.
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by didibus on Thursday November 19, 2020 @12:31AM (#25146540)
I'd like to distinguish what this article is talking about, which is the government blocking actual websites, against moderation on private social media websites and platforms.

I don't mean that the latter is not necessarily a problem or not, but we definitely should not be mixing up our thoughts and impression of one with the other, they are very very different in nature.

Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by electrondood on Thursday November 19, 2020 @11:31AM (#25151124)
I think a two-pronged approach is needed, though it's hard to educate the "ear" when it only wants to hear information confirming it's existing position.
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by mxcrossb on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:22AM (#25147349)
I think the problem is that humans by default assume what they’re reading is true for social cohesion. Especially if you think of social media (or comment sections), I mean why would I ever bother interacting with others if I assume everything I’m being told is false?
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by IanSanders on Thursday November 19, 2020 @11:48PM (#25157386)
We just need to put more value in human integrity. It's too easy to do "the wrong thing" with 0 consequences
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by raxxorrax on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:55AM (#25148220)
We had that around 2010 basically before the threat of fake news was conjured up. Still angry at those panicking...
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by grillvogel on Thursday November 19, 2020 @01:58PM (#25153032)
probably things are different now, but in the "old days" school assignments didnt consider internet sources to be "real" sources and you had to use books etc for your reports
Re:‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the... by nullsense on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @11:53PM (#25146358)
If I apply that logic to your comment then everything on the internet should be assumed to be true.