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Re:SLS vs. Starship by avmich on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:55PM (#25089900)
From https://www.cbo.gov/publication/18196, the link above:

"The payload of 140 metric tons is derived from weight data pro-vided in Richard W. Orloff, Apollo by the Numbers: A Statistical Reference, NASA SP-2000-4029 (National Aeronautics and Space Administration, updated September 27, 2005), available at http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4029/SP-4029.htm. In that reference, 140 mt is the weight of the Apollo 17 command-and-service modules, the lunar module, the spacecraft/lunar module adapter, the instrument unit, and the S-IVB stage (the third stage of the Saturn V), including the fuel remaining in that stage needed to propel the Apollo command-and-service modules and lunar module from low earth orbit to the moon."

So this number includes the S-IVB stage and unspent fuel. Which ought to raise the question of the definition of the payload - we don't usually consider launcher's parts among payload mass.

> Mass of the payload to LEO is just how much mass is brought to LEO.

No, it's usually not that simple - Space Shuttle here doesn't include Orbiter's mass (I think it's a mistake), Sputnik payload didn't include R-7 second stage (I think it's right), Energia doesn't have 0 LEO payload even though it releases the payload below LEO (I think this definition is also more meaningful).

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