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Re:How to get root on Ubuntu 20.04 by pretending nobody’s /home by dralley on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @09:11PM (#25054806)
Doesn't Debian sometimes go so far as to split software apart into multiple packages?

I've always thought that Fedora and Arch were both much more "upstream first" than Debian is.

Re:How to get root on Ubuntu 20.04 by pretending nobody’s /home by jcelerier on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @05:23AM (#25057170)
Yep, had a bug very recently caused by splitting libllvm-dev and libclang-dev... guess what, libllvm-dev's CMake files depend on clang libs as they are all built together so if you only install libllvm-dev, find_package(clang) in CMake will error without any way to fix it from your code.
Re:How to get root on Ubuntu 20.04 by pretending nobody’s /home by BlackFingolfin on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:31AM (#25056566)
/me raises hand

Yes, they do. And then they complain to you that this broke something: they split our package, from the main package A they split off parts into separate packages B, C, ... that depend on A. And then complained to us that B and C had a circular dependency and that this means we had to fix something. The audacity.

Our users still sometimes report issues where I immediately ask "are you using Debian or Ubuntu?" and the answer is usually yes: because guess what, they only install A (which matches our software's name) and then they miss the functionality which Debian moved into B, C, ... We actually print a warning about this when starting the software (along the lines of "Warning, B is missing, some things may not work as expected"), which then Debian patched out, calling it "misleading".

I've never had similar issues with any other downstream Linux distro.

So, no, I really can't agree with GP's statement.

Re:How to get root on Ubuntu 20.04 by pretending nobody’s /home by rutthenut on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @04:00AM (#25056746)
Wow, this Debian hack really makes life difficult for end users :( > We actually print a warning about this when starting the software (along the lines of "Warning, B is missing, some things may not work as expected"), which then Debian patched out, calling it "misleading". >
Re:How to get root on Ubuntu 20.04 by pretending nobody’s /home by npsimons on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @09:50AM (#25058819)
> Doesn't Debian sometimes go so far as to split software apart into multiple packages?

IMHO, this is the correct thing to do.

I've spent a considerable amount of time as both developer and systems adminstrator. Not quite DevOps, but I've been doing both since before that was a term.

Programmers don't often have that systems level view that is necessary for systems administration. It leads to myopia like this Ubuntu patch, and packaging is usually an afterthought to many programmers. It's that difference between a "project" and a "product."

So honestly, complaining that Debian splits things would be like complaining they don't deliver tarballs, because back before GitHub, that was how upstream "delivered" "packages" (how many people remember "tar -xzf package.tar.gz && cd package && ./configure && make"?). And before you bring up "missing files", you can do an "apt-file" to search for things and then install the associated package, assuming that it wasn't installed already as a Recommended package or in many, many cases, you are using a metapackage which contains the "full" package anyway.

Re:How to get root on Ubuntu 20.04 by pretending nobody’s /home by dralley on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @05:29PM (#25063775)
Yes but see the other responses for examples of this "going wrong".

In any case, good or bad, it's invasive.

Re:How to get root on Ubuntu 20.04 by pretending nobody’s /home by deknos on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @06:45AM (#25057556)
yeah, that's a good thing. because i do not need always dev-files or documentation or debug symbols on my machine.

all people are always about "slim systems" and alpine. but when debian does real engineering, then everybody complains it's complicated. that is a little bit annoying.

yes, debian is complex, but it's for a reason, since there are many requirements.

Re:How to get root on Ubuntu 20.04 by pretending nobody’s /home by corty on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @09:38AM (#25058740)
Also, removing -dev packages and compilers is one of the usual hardening steps, to make it harder for an attacker to establish a foothold and build tools.
Re:How to get root on Ubuntu 20.04 by pretending nobody’s /home by dralley on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @05:24PM (#25063729)
No, that's not what I mean. Most distributions do things like splitting dev-files and debug symbols and documenation.

What I mean is taking one piece of software and splitting it apart into many libraries or binaries in a way that the upstream developer did not originally intend.

See some of the other responses.