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Re:On Apple's Piss-Poor Documentation by jjkaczor on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @02:08PM (#25050061)
For all the crap that Apple, Java and other open-source people have piled on Microsoft over the years, their developer documentation has always been very good. Yes, there are rough-edges.

Back in the day, when Sun was still in-charge of Java, I had my 1-person consulting company partner with Sun and become an official "Certified Java" organization... Great, I thought - now I can get some better documentation...

Sure, Sun replied - but first you have to buy a $30,000 server... Thankfully, .NET hit public beta about then and I have never looked back.

Re:On Apple's Piss-Poor Documentation by sirmarksalot on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @04:32PM (#25052260)
I wouldn't say it's always been very good. How well do you remember MSDN? In the mid-2000s, Microsoft documentation lived on three or four separate sites, and I don't remember the names of all of them. The two that spring immediately to mind are MSDN and TechNet. MSDN had the infuriating issue of broken links. You'd be deep-diving on an issue, find a link to an article that looked like it might perfectly address your question, and... 404.

It got so bad that a VP ended up making a pronouncement, declaring a war on broken links. He announced a multi-year plan to reduce and eventually fix all the broken links on MSDN. This was the vacuum that was partially responsible for the birth of Stack Overflow.

Re:On Apple's Piss-Poor Documentation by teh_klev on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @08:49PM (#25054687)
> It got so bad that a VP ended up making a pronouncement, declaring a war on broken links.

Probably Scott Guthrie initiated that. As some nobody I once emailed him directly because I'd discovered a bug in some framework thing with a reproducible example. He actually replied and cc'd in the relevant people at MS and after a short while there was a workaround and a fix and a KB article or something (it's so long ago I barely remember). Impressed? absolutely. MS still have some pretty good and accessible folks, and I'm a huge fan of Scott Hanselman who's a great brand ambassador for DevDiv (and not beyond a few self-deprecating MS jokes about the company's past).

Re:On Apple's Piss-Poor Documentation by bhrgunatha on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @11:55PM (#25055611)
They also suffered the same problem mentioned in this post.

Documentation pages that showed a method's signature with no explanation of the function or example usage. So many times I'd look something up only to find the method name parroted as a full sentence; and those method names were often obscure to the point of meaninglessness.

Re:On Apple's Piss-Poor Documentation by int_19h on Saturday November 14, 2020 @11:29PM (#25098260)
In late-90s to mid-00, if you did any serious Win32 or .NET development, you had the MSDN Library installed locally - it had its own help browser, with integrated search and index. The latter was especially useful, since it contained all structs, classes, interfaces, functions etc, across all platforms for which docs were installed.

Anything that was available online, official or not, was inferior to that. I'm not sure if it was deliberate, but it significantly hampered the utility of pirated copies of Visual Studio - since MSDN docs would require a lot more CDs than the software, most warez releases stripped them out. And in the developing world, where such pirated software is readily available on physical CDs sold by street vendors, they would usually be priced per CD regardless of what's on it - so a complete VS+MSDN bundle would be a lot more expensive, and thus in relatively low demand, and not widely sold.

Re:On Apple's Piss-Poor Documentation by jjkaczor on Thursday November 12, 2020 @09:58AM (#25070529)
Heh... well, I am old enough to remember the offline MSDN - which was great, and the rough transition to online - which got better, eventually... (and the rise of StackOverflow makes more sense in that context) but then at the beginning of the "cloud-era", IMO, it got worse again - to the point that I was constantly complaining about blog articles by MSFT employee's that really should have been folded into the actual documentation/KB instead...

It's a hard sell to tell an IT decision-maker in a different team/group that you need to configure things "just so" (think TechNet versus MSDN for configuration/operational articles) when all you have to point them too is a non-official blog post...

(Don't even get me started about the quality/out-of-date materials for things like Dynamics 365...)

Re:On Apple's Piss-Poor Documentation by wlesieutre on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @02:54PM (#25050900)
There's an old saying at Microsoft: developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers
Re:On Apple's Piss-Poor Documentation by ethbr0 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @03:17PM (#25051281)
It's mocked, but the underlying observation is astute.

In the personal computing world, first parties can't build enough user software.

Furthermore, software availability and reliability lag third party developer and development ecosystem health. A bad experience doesn't hurt the platform today, it hurts the platform in 1+ years.

And perhaps even worse, steps to address it take effect over a 1+ year timeframe as well.

Apple's been able to leverage iOS market share into papering over the desktop reality, but they're going to find the emperor has no clothes real quickly if anything about that calculus shifts in a bad way.

Re:On Apple's Piss-Poor Documentation by int_19h on Saturday November 14, 2020 @11:34PM (#25098278)
If you recall, back when the first iPhone came out, the idea was that Apple itself would be the only provider of first-class software for it, and everything else was relegated to web apps.

It didn't work out for them back then, and so we got native apps and the store. But I can't help but think that Apple still sees it as a sort of compromise of their ideal vision of what the platform should really be like, and thus dev ecosystem evolution is mostly on the backburner. Just look at how long it took for Swift to appear, despite Obj-C being really dated by that time.

Re:On Apple's Piss-Poor Documentation by jonhendry18 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @04:32PM (#25052255)
Apple used to be better about developers, I think, back 2000-2010 or so.
Re:On Apple's Piss-Poor Documentation by wlesieutre on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @04:46PM (#25052415)
Mocked at the time, but looking back it sounds pretty good. Maybe Apple needs a Steve Ballmer.