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Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by ttul on Monday November 02, 2020 @02:35PM (#24972130)
Speaking without evidence from the frozen wastelands of Canada, it seems that US trade unions are every bit as powerful - if not more so - in specific areas of the economy. But, oddly, worker pay and protections are weaker on average.

Could this strange state of affairs be the result of a political system that is highly polarized and less fundamentally democratic than the Canadian and European system?

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by BurningFrog on Monday November 02, 2020 @03:25PM (#24972796)
New York used to be a mafia town, and the unions were one of their strongholds.

I suspect some of that dynamic lives on.

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by jbay808 on Monday November 02, 2020 @02:44PM (#24972255)
Can you clarify your comment? It reads to me as ambiguous whether you're saying that worker pay and protections are weaker in Canada or weaker in the US.
Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by refurb on Monday November 02, 2020 @06:21PM (#24974641)
Worker pay and protection is weaker in the US? If we’re talking CA and NY, then I would protection is pretty comparable and pay is higher.
[dead]
Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by phaemon on Monday November 02, 2020 @02:45PM (#24972265)
That isn't what democratic means. It has nothing to do with which laws are passed, it's about how they're passed.
Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by tathougies on Monday November 02, 2020 @06:21PM (#24974644)
Yes which is why the United States is not a democracy. There cannot be a law in the United States that suppresses or compels speech no matter how many people want it. The us is a country of freedoms not mob rule.
Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by deanCommie on Monday November 02, 2020 @02:54PM (#24972403)
There is more to democracy and freedom than one (or two if you choose to include guns) sets of freedom.

Practically speaking, there is no differences in the freedom Canadian and European citizens have regarding expression compared to Americans even though EFFECTIVELY certain types of speech are restricted (e.g. holocaust denial)

That is because the list of restricted speech is incredibly miniscule, and there are strong protections in place otherwise that prevent a "slippery slope" situation from occurring. ("First you ban me from freely speaking about the holocaust not happening, next you ban me from criticizing the president!")

Practically, non-US democracies have demonstrated a stronger commitment freedom of assembly and freedom of the press than the US has over the last 4 years.

The only difference is that in the US these protections are guaranteed by an effectively "sacred document" that supercedes all laws (The constitution)

But it is more and more clear that that is a bug not a feature of the system, and is causing legitimate harm as your supreme court is getting stacked with "textualist originalists" who think that the wisdom of slave-owning cotton farmers applies unquestionably to 21st century technology and societal concerns.

And this is before we even get into the question of what it means for something to be "democratic", which is to say there is a "Democratic electoral process", which we're about to find out just how much the US process has been degraded as seemingly HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people's votes will either be not counted, or will be denied the opportunity to vote. What is happening in the US would be impossible in any other Western Democracy.

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by bleepblorp on Monday November 02, 2020 @03:18PM (#24972701)
Point of order: the US is far from unique in having a written constitution. Most developed countries have a written constitution that, among other things, guarantees (on paper) basic rights to their citizens. The only exception is the UK, which does not have a single written constitutional document.

As you say, the commitment to basic democratic rights is considerably stronger in other western countries than in the US. The kind of abuses the Republican party habitually conducts with the aim of disenfranchising Democratic voters would not be tolerated elsewhere; this is reflected by the fact that the US constitution only explicitly prohibits certain forms of electoral discrimination (i.e. it's a blacklist policy) but does not explicitly grant a right to vote.

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by balfirevic on Monday November 02, 2020 @07:18PM (#24974996)
In Croatia, which is in Europe (and part of EU), you will get fined if you:

1) Post an approving image of weed on Facebook

2) Write ACAB on Twitter (this one also got a journalist arrested)

3) Have a shirt that says "ruling party - thieves" (which, as an aside, is pretty accurate)

4) Are a journalist and publish an article which the court rules has caused "mental pain" to suing party (usually politicians and judges - this happens all the time)

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by tathougies on Monday November 02, 2020 @08:39PM (#24975490)
Well as long as the press doesn't mention any of the banned topics and people only gather to support things that aren't banned they are free. All people are free you see but some are more free than others
Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by tathougies on Monday November 02, 2020 @08:38PM (#24975486)
How can you claim the press is free when you already claimed there are certain topics you cannot broach? Meanwhile the us press is so free they can publish completely anonymous articles critical of the president (the atlantics unsubstantiated veterans comment) and the most they get 'punished' is a critical tweet.

You are delusional to think the European media is freer.

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by mthoms on Friday November 06, 2020 @12:12PM (#25009188)
No, it's you who are delusional.

The U.S. ranks 45th in press freedoms. There are 25 European countries who rank better. Heck, there are even 5 African countries who rank higher.

https://rsf.org/en/ranking

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index

This infamous clip from The Newsroom might shed more light on how the U.S. is actually doing in comparison to other democratic countries (all statistics quoted are easily verified if you want to look into it) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjMqda19wk

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by refurb on Monday November 02, 2020 @06:23PM (#24974663)
This seems really handwavy.

“Yes you have fewer free speech rights in Europe and Canada but that doesn’t actually matter”

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by deanCommie on Monday November 02, 2020 @07:45PM (#24975160)
Not any more handwavy than "These countries don't have free speech rights, therefore they're not actually democratic"?
Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by selectodude on Monday November 02, 2020 @02:59PM (#24972452)
There's no question that the US has more voter suppression issues than Europe, but it's foolish to behave as if it's something that isn't to be worried about.

https://www.ips-journal.eu/topics/european-union/voter-suppr...

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by eznzt on Monday November 02, 2020 @03:08PM (#24972595)
Is it completely impopular? It is my opinion that expats should not be allowed to vote. I've asked around and most people seem to disagree, though.
Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by bparsons on Monday November 02, 2020 @02:53PM (#24972395)
Part of it has to do with the fact that unions have to negotiate for health benefits. In other jurisdictions, primary health insurance isn't a thing, so the union can focus on getting better wages.
Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by renewiltord on Monday November 02, 2020 @02:44PM (#24972250)
Less fundamentally democratic? As in you mean that most views are subsumed into the two big parties? I sympathize with the view that large parties eliminate diversity in political thought but I'm trying to understand what "less fundamentally democratic" means here.
Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by bleepblorp on Monday November 02, 2020 @03:02PM (#24972509)
The Canadian constitution is not designed to grossly overweight the views of rural areas over those of populated areas. Canada doesn't have an institution like the US senate, where voters from the least populous state have over 80 times more power than those from the most populous state.

The spread in riding (electoral district) size in Canada only varies by a factor of 4.5 if the (mostly unpopulated) northern territories are included (the three territories have one MP, each, to represent populations of less than 30,000) and a factor of 1.5 among the populated provinces.

Canadian federal governments are generally comprised of whichever party received the largest share of votes nationally. This is not always the case in the US.

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by kcolford on Monday November 02, 2020 @05:28PM (#24974240)
> Canadian federal governments are generally comprised of whichever party received the largest share of votes nationally. This is not always the case in the US.

I'm going to disagree with you on this. In Canada, the general votes usually result in 1/3-1/3-1/3 split between the Conservatives, Liberals, and NDP. It's our first past the post system for MPs that results in the uneven split at the final tally. The only reason that the system hasn't succumbed to gerrymandering as badly as elsewhere is that district changes must be prompted by a change in the number of provincial seats from the census. The changes themselves are proposed by an unelected third-party with members chosen by the judiciary of the province and the speaker of the house (who is chosen by the MPs through a secret ballot vote). Otherwise, it would be all too easy to gerrymander an election in Canada and end up in the same situation as the US.

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by scarab5q on Monday November 02, 2020 @03:11PM (#24972616)
A vote in the US matters significantly more or less depending on what state you live in. California has approximately 40 million people living in it and yet it still has only 2 senators which means that in California 1 senator represents 20 million people. Wyoming has approximately 600,000 people and still gets two senators meaning that 1 senator represents 300,000 people. Given that senators are needed to pass laws, your vote has significantly more weight if you live in Wyoming than if you live in California. What this means is that even though republicans have a majority in the senate they represent a minority of the American population. I mean even the president was voted into office with fewer votes than their opponent.

Contrast this with countries that use proportional representation which means everyone's vote basically means more or less the same as anyone else's vote.

The US is currently ranked 25th in the world by "democracy ranking"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by skissane on Monday November 02, 2020 @04:33PM (#24973687)
It's worth pointing out that having a Senate based on states not population is not unique to the US, Australia does the same thing. In Australia, the 6 states get 12 senators each, and the two self-governing territories get 2 senators each. This means that Tasmania (with a population of 539,590) gets 12 senators – 1 senator per 44,966 people – whereas New South Wales (with a population of 8,157,735) also gets 12 senators – 1 senator per 679,811 people. So a Tasmanian's Senate vote is worth 15 times as much as that of a New South Welshman such as myself.

On the other hand, we do use proportional representation (single transferrable vote, STV) to elect the senators for each state, which is different from the first-past-the-post method the US uses. In a normal election, half of a state's senators are up for re-election; exceptionally, the government may call a special "double dissolution" election, in which the whole Senate is re-elected, if the Senate repeatedly refuses to pass legislation sent to it by the House of Representatives. Our use of STV means that minor parties (Greens on the far left, One Nation on the far right, various centrist/populist independents and other small parties) end up controlling the balance of power in the Senate. Some people don't like that because these minor parties end up sometimes extracting all kinds of concessions from the government in exchange for letting government legislation through.

I think some kind of unequal representation – like the Australian and US Senates – is essential for a federal system to work. Look at the United Kingdom – England has almost 85% of the population, so a big enough majority in England can always overrule the other three smaller constituent countries (Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland), and there are no constitutional mechanisms to prevent that from happening. That's a large part, I think, of why the UK looks like it isn't going to last, with Scotland likely to break away sooner or later, quite possibly followed by Irish reunification some years further down the track, and once its just England and Wales, maybe even Wales will eventually decide to follow Scotland's example. If the British House of Lords was more like the Australian and US Senates, and gave the smaller constituent countries the ability to block an English-dominated majority, then the UK would be more likely to survive.

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by kansface on Monday November 02, 2020 @03:50PM (#24973152)
Sure, but compare the relative power of a CA state representative or the governor to those of Wyoming. CA environmental or privacy regulations for instance often function as de facto national law because the consumer market is so large. Rectifying the imbalance of senators would almost certainly see CA lose that overwhelmingly undemocratic power (~12% of US population - democrats who write the laws are maybe 60% of that subset so 7 million voters).

edit: CA accounts for 15% of the US GDP

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by atharris on Monday November 02, 2020 @05:41PM (#24974325)
Okay? This sounds like a great trade if your goal is to have a representative government instead of minority rule.
Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by kansface on Monday November 02, 2020 @05:57PM (#24974477)
No, it is just another form of minority rule. Why should 7% of the country get to set its environmental policy in exchange for less voice in the national government?
Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by dosshell on Monday November 02, 2020 @03:00PM (#24972485)
I interpret the writer as referring to the democracy index. [0]

U.S. is at place 25 and is categorized as a flawed democracy, lower than Canada and some European countries (but far from all).

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by CameronNemo on Monday November 02, 2020 @03:03PM (#24972519)
This index does not take into account the way some constitutions give certain groups greater say in policymaking, adjucation, or execution.
Re:Tunnels in the US cost more than anywhere else by CameronNemo on Monday November 02, 2020 @03:00PM (#24972486)
US Senate (and by extension the federal court system)

Electoral college