News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by qz2 on Monday November 02, 2020 @05:23AM (#24966467)
Rubbish. They do. My daughter's school has a pile of knackered Pi's that the teachers don't have the time and budget to fix.

Broken connectors, duff microSDs, bricks.

They don't use them now, preferring python on windows.

Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by derefr on Monday November 02, 2020 @11:17AM (#24969696)
> duff microSDs

Do you mean the microSD cards tend to wear out, or that they’re DOA?

If the former — I’m pretty sure there’s an option to load RaspberryOS into a RAM-resident mode (like a live CD) where regular OS usage won’t hit the disk at all, and only a “Local Documents” partition is mounted writable, with nothing configured to implicitly write to it by default.

If the latter — trust me, the same is true of eMMC, or any other Flash media ordered in bulk quantities. You just have to QA them on arrival. Set up an RMAed-parts box with a shipping label in advance; you’ll need it.

> broken connectors

The microSD connector? In an educational context, that shouldn’t be end-user exposed. It’s essentially a maintenance port. Stick some tape over it.

In the computer labs of the 90s, kids would break the CD-ROM drive trays, too. MDM software was developed that would, among other things, lock out the CD-tray eject mechanism unless/until a teacher enabled it (presumably for working through some whole-class “multimedia” product that never materialized, because who’d trust kids to insert the CDs?)

Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by wtallis on Monday November 02, 2020 @12:33PM (#24970689)
> If the latter — trust me, the same is true of eMMC, or any other Flash media ordered in bulk quantities. You just have to QA them on arrival. Set up an RMAed-parts box with a shipping label in advance; you’ll need it.

SD cards and USB flash drives are manufactured with lower-grade flash memory than SATA and NVMe SSDs. The stuff that wears out in RPi usage is the stuff that was rejected for desktop usage. So having a large failure rate is not the only option, if you can expose a SATA or PCIe port. It's a little disappointing that they cannot even offer end users that upgrade path.

Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by krageon on Monday November 02, 2020 @06:05AM (#24966723)
I'm sure your experiences are legitimate, just like mine for similar usage profiles are. My only conclusion can be that it's not the hardware itself that's the problem, unless we allow for the possibility that it's different batching. Unlikely, but not unthinkable.
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by deeringc on Monday November 02, 2020 @06:46AM (#24967013)
But we've already established that these are meant for "the promotion of teaching basic computer science in schools and in developing countries". In these situations with young, untrained hands, durability and robustness are absolutely key criteria. It's not good value if it ends up discarded/broken due to additional complexity or a fault.
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by krageon on Monday November 02, 2020 @08:32AM (#24967928)
I did mention "similar usage profiles"
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by throwaway894345 on Monday November 02, 2020 @09:45AM (#24968626)
Or maybe you're using Pis in ways that aren't so hard on SD cards, etc? It seems very likely that this is the case given that these users experience these issues on Pis but not other systems.
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by NikolaeVarius on Monday November 02, 2020 @10:46AM (#24969328)
Tell them to give them to me. I'll pay for S&H
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by C1sc0cat on Monday November 02, 2020 @06:32AM (#24966915)
Probably as the pi was designed for 6th formers to use - letting 8-10 year olds lose on them :-)
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by qz2 on Monday November 02, 2020 @07:26AM (#24967365)
No all GCSE so 14+ students. The issue is usually that they freeze or crash under "desktop use" all the time and people pull the power out and back in again to reset them. This flexes the HDMI and USB connectors which eventually break or the cables give out. During the reboot cycle is when the SD card gets borked, or randomly suddenly.

It's really a terrible computing experience compared to using a simple off the shelf windows box running python with full single-sign-on to GCPW. They don't crash and the cables are never yanked around because they are AIO boxes and the storage never goes wonky. Teachers prefer them because the first 30 minutes of a 80 minute slot isn't getting 30 raspberry pi's limping again.

Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by ddalex on Monday November 02, 2020 @07:41AM (#24967501)
These are classic symptoms of underpowered PIs. 99% of USB power supplies are not fit for a PI :(
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Monday November 02, 2020 @09:22AM (#24968359)
So that raises the question: Why do they keep making Pis with USB power? One could argue that it's because USB power supplies are cheap and ubiquitous, but that's not really true if only 1% of power supplies are actually capable of properly powering a Pi.

They could use a different power connector that doesn't cause this confusion, or they could design Pis to use less power and therefore work properly with more USB power supplies.

Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by derefr on Monday November 02, 2020 @11:29AM (#24969839)
MacBooks Pros are “USB powered”, too, but you need a 65W USB-C charger to get them past “Not Charging”.

A USB connector, at this point, is a PHY (like a serial DB-9 connector), not an inter-ecosystem compatibility promise (like a FireWire or SCSI port.) Lots of things use USB for lots of different incompatible use-cases. They just happen to share a connector.

But on the other hand, you can also think of it like a regular PSU: all motherboards connect to all PSUs, and there’s no way for a PSU and motherboard to communicate to “lock out” a mismatch. And a PSU will seem to work for a given configuration of motherboard+CPU+peripherals, until you drive that configuration hard enough to overdrive the PSU, and it shuts off.

The solution in both cases is the same: you overbuy on PSUs. A good high-wattage-rated power supply (whether a USB one or a desktop molex one) will power anything below that wattage requirement just fine. USB PSUs do negotiate power draw with the client device, so you can run a Pi off a big-brick laptop-class USB charger without damaging it.

And that’s mostly why Raspberry uses USB power, I think: if you already have a big beefy USB PSU from something else (as most early-market adopters do), you can use it to power your Pi for playing around, without having to buy the Pi its own PSU, if you’re not sure you want/need to set it up for its own standalone use-case.

(Also, the Pi will run just fine on a wimpy 5V1A iPhone charger if you don’t tax it very hard. Just like a cheap desktop PSU will power a gaming rig with a beefy GPU, if you never open a game. And most embedded use cases, e.g. PiHole, don’t tax the Pi very hard. So there’s a lot of cases where people get along just fine with the cheapest possible configuration, where forcing them to buy an actual power adapter would make things a lot more expensive for no gain.)

> or they could design Pis to use less power

You know that they stop selling old-model Pi’s, right? It’s not because they want to. It’s because those chips stop being manufactured upstream; and Raspberry doesn’t do enough volume to drive production of SoCs all on their own.

Raspberry is constrained by what parts they can put in a Pi that are both available and sufficient for the use-cases their customers have (e.g. driving monitors at native resolution.) Those chips have minimum power requirements. The power requirements never go down, because there’s no high-volume customer with exactly Raspberry’s use-case (where that use-case is “using process-shrinks to build a graphical desktop SoC of the same performance at ever-lower current draw, rather than achieving ever-higher performance at the same current draw.” An SoC process-shrink that is taken as-is with no commensurate re-layout for increased perf, is extremely rare in the industry. Not rare in microcontrollers, but an MCU can’t drive a desktop computer.)

You might suggest they undervolt the newer chips — and they do! — but there’s only so far you can undervolt a chip before it just stops functioning at all. (Especially an SoC, that contains DRAM that must get refreshed, IO controllers that must drive peripheral lines with to-spec line voltage, etc.)

Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by kingosticks on Monday November 02, 2020 @12:06PM (#24970357)
> specially an SoC, that contains DRAM that must get refreshed, IO controllers that must drive peripheral lines with to-spec line voltage, etc.

I'm just nitpicking your otherwise great post here but wouldn't the IO voltages be entirely separate from the core voltage? Or do they all need to be kept within a certain range of each other?

Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by qz2 on Monday November 02, 2020 @08:00AM (#24967675)
Yeah see my original comment about USB power problems :)
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by C1sc0cat on Monday November 02, 2020 @11:50AM (#24970106)
Maybe you should do what our CCNA instructor did - if you brick one of the routers you have to fix it yourself.

Is it such a terrible "learning" Experience that yanking the power cable out is a bad idea as others have said the pi's should have better power supplies.

Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by chaos_a on Monday November 02, 2020 @05:39AM (#24966567)
sounds like people simply weren't taking any care of them, that's why they broke. If they had cases and decent sd cards that probably wouldn't have happened.
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by jon-wood on Monday November 02, 2020 @06:27AM (#24966876)
I’m responsible for a fleet of a few hundred Raspberry Pis being used as home monitoring hubs - they use high grade SD cards, and are configured to write as little as possible while still fulfilling their function, yet we still see one or two a month fall of the internet because of SD card corruption. This is absolutely a problem.

I believe the compute module is somewhat better in that it uses eMMC rather than SD cards.

Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by read_if_gay_ on Monday November 02, 2020 @07:22AM (#24967334)
Correct me if I’m mistaken, but isn’t eMMC literally just an embedded SD card?
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by makomk on Monday November 02, 2020 @10:29AM (#24969103)
Same interface as an SD card, but better firmware and probably higher quality flash. SD cards are really aggressively cost-cut, often coming in than less than the price of raw flash of the same capacity.
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by avian on Monday November 02, 2020 @08:08AM (#24967754)
As someone who has also worked with fleets of devices (R.Pi-based and others) working off SD-cards, I can confirm what jon-wood is saying. For some reason SD cards fail at a much higher rate than eMMC flash chips in traditional SMT packages.
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by cvakiitho on Monday November 02, 2020 @08:04AM (#24967707)
It is, and it is better because it probably has better chips, but it will die, and brick RPi in the future.
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by qz2 on Monday November 02, 2020 @05:43AM (#24966594)
School computers take a beating. That's why the two are incompatible.
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by rbanffy on Monday November 02, 2020 @06:21AM (#24966836)
That's one of the reasons the Apple II was so popular with schools.

It was built like a tank.

Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by Sunspark on Monday November 02, 2020 @11:30AM (#24969851)
The Bell & Howell version came in Darth Vader black too: http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/appleII-bell-and...
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by rbanffy on Monday November 02, 2020 @11:51AM (#24970129)
Interesting it was painted and not a differently colored plastic.
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by lmns on Monday November 02, 2020 @06:49AM (#24967044)
SD cards with wear leveling and error correction are hard to find and can easily be more expensive than similar SSDs.
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by kingosticks on Monday November 02, 2020 @07:28AM (#24967382)
I was under the impression most non-awful SD cards had some sort of wear-leveling these days but there's no standard for it so they don't advertise it on the front like SSDs. I couldn't really find any proof either-way about this, just a few instances of people looking into it:

- https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/27619/is-it-... - https://www.reddit.com/r/raspberry_pi/comments/ex7dvo/quick_...

Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by numpad0 on Monday November 02, 2020 @07:47AM (#24967556)
I think every microSD and USB sticks by now has WL across the board, especially at awful grade. WL and ECC are must at current [price, BER, capacity, bit-per-cell] or something.
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by lmns on Monday November 02, 2020 @10:55AM (#24969451)
With USB sticks it's a different story. There are some manufacturers like Sandisk who claim they use wear leveling in all of their current USB sticks.

microSD is a mess in this regard. Wear leveling is less common there and only present in very specific and expensive niche models.

Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by sgerenser on Monday November 02, 2020 @12:53PM (#24970902)
[citation needed]. I can’t believe any but the cheapest no-name SD cards would have absolutely no form of wear leveling.
Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by sgerenser on Monday November 02, 2020 @03:48PM (#24973106)
It does look like there are many of cards that don't claim any sort of wear leveling (doesn't mean they don't do it at all but they don't call it out). This is surprising to me, but if you want to make sure you get a card with wear leveling, look for it in the specs. These SanDisk industrial cards[1] are ones I've used in the past that specifically claim they do wear leveling in the spec sheet: Advanced memory management FW features power immunity, auto/manual read refresh, ECC, wear leveling. They're also only a few bucks more than a "normal" microSD card.

[1]https://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Industrial-MicroSD-UHS-I-SDSD...

Re:Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop PC by conjectures on Monday November 02, 2020 @06:21AM (#24966837)
Too many kids, that's the problem with schools these days.