News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by pessimizer on Sunday November 01, 2020 @04:46PM (#24962802)
The people who visit this website are the people who are paid to create and administer all of this technology. They're not only the last people you would be able to convince of something that would affect their livelihoods, but even the ones who do understand feel like it is part of their duty to deceive the less technically adept about the capabilities and dangers of the technology that they're surrounded with.

The comfortable upper middle-class are the most conservative elements of any society; they're providing the management and expertise to implement any dystopia that's coming. Beneath them are the tradespeople and unskilled laborers who choose between working or starving, and above them are morons.

Nobody who has spent more than a moment thinking about it fails to understand the dangers of metadata, they just don't think they it will be a problem for them. Hence the most common response is something about how their lives are boring, and how they have nothing to to hide. "Who cares if I'm at Starbucks at 2 o'clock?" Technologists know full well what they could do with that information, that's what they're paid to know, and they're who are going to be doing it, or they're going to have to find another job.

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by charlchi on Sunday November 01, 2020 @05:59PM (#24963303)
> The people who visit this website are the people who are paid to create and administer all of this technology.

Exactly, some falsely assume all technologists somehow share an enthusiasm for morality. Many of the most successful technologists I know simply work for the highest pay from military/intelligence contracts.

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by arminiusreturns on Sunday November 01, 2020 @06:35PM (#24963501)
The term "hacker" in "hacker news" is too misleading, especially those of us who use the more RMS-esque definition of it. Petition to change to something more appropos.
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by segfaultbuserr on Monday November 02, 2020 @02:56AM (#24965604)
I personally agree that the more RMS-esque or Steven Levy definition of "hacker" is a good idea. However, we must acknowledge that "hackers" is not never a homogeneous group, and even more so today. I know some greyhat hackers who do brilliant technical works that rightfully entitie them "hacker", but they have questionable ethics. Normally I use the generic definition from RFC 1392 as the compromise.

> hacker: A person who delights in having an intimate understanding of the internal workings of a system, computers and computer networks in particular.

Using this definition, calling this site "Hacker News" is not exactly accurate, but also not too far-off. I think this website is 40% "Silicon Valley & Startup" News, 40% "Hacker" News, and 20% misc.

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by HenryBemis on Monday November 02, 2020 @03:25AM (#24965739)
To add to that, even if the word "hacker" has a malicious connotation, today, the meaning of the word is closer to "the one who knows his/her stuff well and enjoys breaking them down and creating new things".

One of my favourite sites is the IKEAhackers.net (no affiliation). That site truly shows what a "hacker" does, in the furiture domain, but still, decomposing, redesigning, reusing.

Exactly like the RFC 1392 (aka "Internet Users' Glossary") as you mention. There is a distinction to the word "cracker" which shows malicious intent (what our dear friends on EF + NSA are doing).

This piece of news should also be a reminder to ALL, that these agencies that "protect" us (irrespective of flag) cannot and should not be trusted with/for anything. Especially not with the truth.

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by kimjongtrill on Monday November 02, 2020 @01:34AM (#24965300)
Lol petition to stop naming anything because eventually all labels become bad. /s
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by arminiusreturns on Monday November 02, 2020 @03:49AM (#24965902)
I guess I did forget my /s. All in good jest, and like a good jest, perhaps a modicum of truth is there.
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by drdeca on Monday November 02, 2020 @02:11PM (#24971836)
we should made labels by hashing publicly registered semi-precise definitions, and maybe add markers to indicate how closely what we mean fits said registered definition of the label.

(I don't actually think this is what people should do, but I do think it might be a cool expirament.)

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by pera on Monday November 02, 2020 @09:47AM (#24968647)
didn't pg name this place "Startup News" before changing it to "Hacker News" just because hacker sounds cooler?
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by tomp on Monday November 02, 2020 @11:56AM (#24970215)
Your comment implies that working for military/intelligence is automatically immoral. Nothing could be further from the truth. Believing that freedom is "free" is highly delusional. This civilization that we have, and enjoy, almost entirely depends on having more, better, bigger guns than the "bad guys" (in fact, having more, better, bigger guns is the best way to ensure you don't have to use them).

What you do with the guns is a different issue, but there's clearly many nations worldwide that focus on defense but not offense (maybe not US, but probably Switzerland).

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by james1071 on Monday November 02, 2020 @10:15AM (#24968944)
it is revenge of the nerds sniff of power and the bullied become the bullies
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by DeafSquid on Sunday November 01, 2020 @07:00PM (#24963662)
I work in a factory doing factory stuff
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by pessimizer on Sunday November 01, 2020 @09:07PM (#24964279)
Lots of people do, I hope your day goes easy
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by DeafSquid on Sunday November 01, 2020 @10:45PM (#24964667)
Thanks. It's actually a pretty chill job most of the time
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by redis_mlc on Monday November 02, 2020 @02:53AM (#24965593)
> They're not only the last people you would be able to convince of something that would affect their livelihoods

Working in Silicon Valley, I would not agree with saying that engineers in general are involved in this for any immoral reasons. (One of the few exceptions is ad tracking experts, who dig like pigs for truffles through PII.) The reasons are not knowing history (ie. Crypto AG pwnage), and just a lack of intellectual curiosity.

I'd like to comment on the importance of metadata analysis.

This is not well-known, but before the British were able to decrypt German WW2 traffic, they used very detailed radio traffic metadata analysis to map everything they needed to know about ground troops. (The architect of that was given US citizenship after the war and built the US' system, but on a global scale.)

Details of that were classified long after the war in both countries. And it was just metadata.

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by strictnein on Sunday November 01, 2020 @08:43PM (#24964183)
> upper middle-class are the most conservative elements of any society

This very clearly is not the case in the US.

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by kaitai on Sunday November 01, 2020 @10:55PM (#24964698)
I think that conservative means "in support of a (certain kind of) status quo" in this case, rather than the American line-up of hot-button culture war issues. The upper middle-class wants stability, whatever it is, because of the structure of their income stream. That's why upper middle class people are basically centrists and don't want to rock the boat too much: they're doing very well in the boat, and rocking it will have them taking on water. Other folks have much less to lose (which we should all remember over the next month).
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by thaumasiotes on Sunday November 01, 2020 @11:09PM (#24964758)
Why do these points not apply to the upper class? I would expect them to be at least as conservative as the upper middle class, and all of these arguments fail to distinguish the groups. But the claim is that the upper-middle class is more conservative than the upper class. That's... weird?
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by username90 on Monday November 02, 2020 @04:14AM (#24966069)
Example: Upper middle class wants to limit immigration since it hurts their salaries. Upper class wants more immigration to get cheap labor into the country.
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by AlexandrB on Sunday November 01, 2020 @09:17PM (#24964307)
What? It's absolutely true in the US

> But among the 64% of American voters who earn more than $50,000 a year, 49% chose Trump, and 47% Clinton.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/09/white-voters...

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by pessimizer on Sunday November 01, 2020 @10:52PM (#24964690)
And both Clinton and Biden are very conservative candidates, by any reasonable standard.
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by counterpoint1 on Sunday November 01, 2020 @11:42PM (#24964876)
God I wish this trope would die.

All the political terms - left, right, conservative, progressive, liberal, etc have definitions which vary greatly from country-to-country, over time, and by which group is using them. Clinton and Biden are representatives from American's dominant liberal party and represent views which are left-of-center when you do the sane thing and define center as "median voter in the country being discussed" and not "my group of friends" or whatever time or place you're imagining.

You might as well say 'Bill Gates is very poor, by any reasonable standard' (because unlike the rich people of 2,000 years ago, he can't raise an army that rivals that of his home nation-state or the rich of the future who take vacations on the moon).

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by Spivak on Sunday November 01, 2020 @11:58PM (#24964939)
I think the parent means that both Clinton and Biden are establishment candidates. Neither of the are boat rockers like Bernie or Trump in 2016. I think the reality of Trump’s presidency is far more establishment than his original campaign but still.

Liberal & Conservative in the US usually have to do with what changes a person wants to make but Clinton, Romney, Obama, Biden, hell Bush are all literally conservative in the scope and amount.

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by pessimizer on Monday November 02, 2020 @08:10AM (#24967771)
I wish you would not refer to arguments that you disagree with as tropes, it's a thought terminating cliché. Clinton ran on "America is already great" and Biden is running on a "return to normality" ticket under which "nothing will fundamentally change." The Clintons were the center of the DLC, who assassinated the candidacy of Jessie Jackson to bring on an era in which the Democrats would "End Welfare As We Know It," sign the crime bill, and deregulate everything. Biden got into politics as a New England Dixiecrat, of the kind that was extremely popular around Boston when white children there were threatened with being exposed to black children in school. His VP is a prosecutor who bragged about jailing the parents of truant children. Both supported the Iraq War. Biden championed the crime bill that was passed under a Clinton administration.

Yes, they wouldn't be conservative for Saudi Arabia, but they would both continue to closely ally us with the Saudis and aid them in murdering Yemenis.

> center as "median voter in the country being discussed

Both Biden and Clinton, issue by issue, are well to the right of the median US citizen. It's pretty dishonest to restrict the people allowed to have their opinions considered to the people who thought that the distinction between Republican and Democratic administrations was important, when the argument being made is about whether both candidates are conservative. The median eligible voter is barely more likely to vote than not.

I know typing this is a waste of time.

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by counterpoint1 on Monday November 02, 2020 @10:30AM (#24969115)
I disagree with your claim that Biden and Clinton are "well to the right of the median US citizen". They are clearly to the left in literally every assessment - whether in the actual elections or polling done by any reputable organization. You're imagining that "median US citizen" is somehow far left of "median US voter" and that's just not true.

Additionally, everything you listed is just exposition on your initial claim. Saying that you will "End Welfare As We Know It" sounds like a potentially wildly liberal plan - perhaps UBI, government-guaranteed employment, housing and healthcare or some other fundamental shift. The victims of crime are disproportionately the poor, people of color and people who are structurally disadvantaged so removing the threat of violent crime from their lives falls well within the standard goals of liberals (even if the actual implementation of the bill you're referencing had more mixed results).

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by KMag on Sunday November 01, 2020 @10:17PM (#24964535)
I agree with the general sentiment, but Trump is a very poor yardstick for conservative political beliefs. Out of Reagan, both Bushes, McCain, Romney, and Trump, Trump is the clear outlier.
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by Thorrez on Sunday November 01, 2020 @10:29PM (#24964586)
You're right that Trump is not necessarily representative of other Republicans. But I think the skew is actually the opposite direction of what you're saying. I think Trump is actually less likely to be favored by wealthy people vs say Bush.

Look at this polling of support of Bush vs Kerry by income level[1], as income rises support for Bush almost always rises, and support for Kerry almost always decreases.

[1] https://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/...

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by KMag on Sunday November 01, 2020 @11:58PM (#24964937)
I didn't mean to suggest anything about the directionality of the skew, just to mention he's not a classical conservative and there's likely some skew between supporting Trump and having conservative political leanings.

(On a side note, there's some smaller skew between voting Republican and having conservative political leanings. I'm conservative in fiscal policy, foreign policy, and favoring action at a local and state level, but liberal regarding most social policies, criminal justice reform, and environmental regulation. I think government enforced price transparency plus a German-style universal healthcare system via private insurance decoupled from employment is preferable to either a US model or a Canadian/UK-style single payer system. I've always registered as a Democrat.)

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by zo1 on Sunday November 01, 2020 @07:32PM (#24963845)
Care to enlighten us what some of the "dangers" of metadata are?
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by xkcd-sucks on Sunday November 01, 2020 @07:54PM (#24963961)
Your behavior is characteristic of a terrorist/pedophile/drug dealer. An automated computer system/bureaucracy, the workings of which are too complex for a human to intuit or critique, decides on the basis of this "fingerprint" that you should be dealt with. You are bombed by a drone / disparaged in authoritative media / shot by police along with your kids and dogs / have your possessions taken by force / have your life ruined for a few months. Nobody at any step of this process is individually culpable, and nobody can identify with any certainty the actions which initiated this process.
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by Thorrez on Sunday November 01, 2020 @10:34PM (#24964608)
That seems more than just the dangers of metadata. That's more of the dangers of giving machines the authority to drop bombs with no human oversight at all. That same kind of problem could happen if the government wasn't spying on anything, or if the government was spying on content, not just metadata.
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by Proziam on Monday November 02, 2020 @12:29AM (#24965059)
Humans follow orders which are given by humans on the basis of data which is analyzed by machines and interpreted by humans.

If the machine says "dude is terrorist based on XYZ" and the human cannot realistically verify all of that is factually correct (perhaps the subject's phone was lost as the subject walked by a mosque?), then it is much easier for the human to say "Data says this dude is terrorist" than it is to say "Data says this dude is terrorist, but the data is probably wrong and we shouldn't..."

The existence of the data itself is a threat against every subject the data includes, at a minimum.

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by Thorrez on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @03:10AM (#24977509)
I believe the core problem there is still making extreme decisions without proper evidence. This could happen if the government knows much less about you (e.g. just the info on your driver's license) or much more about you. That is, the problem in these specific examples is not the existence of the data, but rather the willingness to throw caution to the wind and operating on shaky foundations.
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by Proziam on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @07:45AM (#24979108)
Human's have a threshold where their confidence in the accuracy of something will determine their willingness to participate or take action. The machines/algorithms/authority structures and so forth are in place in large part to provide that confidence.

The issue today is that the leadership (in many areas of life from business to military to government), who make the decision to kill/censor/interrupt business/etc or not, are saying "we have to follow the data" without having any understanding of what that really means.

Ultimately, this creates false confidence both in the decision-maker and those that are following their lead. I find it unlikely that there would be anywhere near the same willingness if the 'intelligence' many of these decisions were based on didn't seem as rich and unmistakably correct as it often does.

Of course, the practical effect here is that leadership gets to blame the algorithm/model/data instead of having to accept the blame themselves. If only those pesky engineers and nerds in the lab were better at the job we'd bomb less foreigners.

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by godelski on Sunday November 01, 2020 @07:46PM (#24963917)
As is being talked about elsewhere the social and interest graphs that can be generated are the most important aspects.

I'll give you an analogy that might help. Let's say that a personal investigator is following you. They have a GPS tracker on you. They can see where you go, who you talk to, for how long, what you buy, etc. The only thing is that they don't know what you are talking to people about or exactly what you buy (but they know where you bought it from). Would you feel comfortable with this person following you around?

I'm assuming not, because I don't know anyone that has answered yes. It feels like an invasion of your personal space, right? They can still learn a lot about you and your habits by doing this, right? But all they've gathered is metadata on you. So why do you feel uncomfortable?

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by justapassenger on Sunday November 01, 2020 @10:14PM (#24964524)
It's not that important what you talk about and what are you doing somewhere for who those systems are used. Just knowing who talk with, and where you're is extremely helpful to law-enforcement to triage from millions of people in the country, to something closer on the order of thousands of people of interest.

Goal of metadata investigation isn't to directly target you, most of the time. It's to put you in the bucket of interesting people, that government will pay attention to.

It's exactly the same as ads on the internet - they maybe classifying you as a person potentially interested in computer security because you're visiting tech crunch. Are all people visiting it interested in computer security? Of course not. But you're many orders of magnitude more likely to be interested in it, than a random person from the internet.

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by nyolfen on Sunday November 01, 2020 @10:57PM (#24964702)
https://www.wired.com/story/inside-the-nsas-secret-tool-for-...

> Even by that account, the scale of collection brought to mind an evocative phrase from legal scholar Paul Ohm. Any information in sufficient volume, he wrote, amounted to a “database of ruin.” It held personal secrets that “if revealed, would cause more than embarrassment or shame; it would lead to serious, concrete, devastating harm.” Nearly anyone in the developed world, he wrote, “can be linked to at least one fact in a computer database that an adversary could use for blackmail, discrimination, harassment, or financial or identity theft.” Revelations of “past conduct, health, or family shame,” for example, could cost a person their marriage, career, legal residence, or physical safety.

> Mere creation of such a database, especially in secret, profoundly changed the balance of power between government and governed. This was the Dark Mirror embodied, one side of the glass transparent and the other blacked out. If the power implications do not seem convincing, try inverting the relationship in your mind: What if a small group of citizens had secret access to the telephone logs and social networks of government officials? How might that privileged knowledge affect their power to shape events? How might their interactions change if they possessed the means to humiliate and destroy the careers of the persons in power? Capability matters, always, regardless of whether it is used. An unfired gun is no less lethal before it is drawn. And in fact, in history, capabilities do not go unused in the long term. Chekhov’s famous admonition to playwrights is apt not only in drama, but in the lived experience of humankind. The gun on display in the first act—nuclear warheads, weaponized disease, Orwellian cameras tracking faces on every street—must be fired in the last. The latent power of new inventions, no matter how repellent at first, does not lie forever dormant in government armories.

take a look at the history of the behavior of intelligence services through the 20th century and ask yourself how comfortable you are with this power being wielded by anybody.

Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by wobbegongz on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:12AM (#24980313)
Chekovs gun is a tool for better stories. It does not work in reality, because in the real world it is always a cost to doing things. And extreme action has extreme costs, so very seldom does any country do anything extreme. As an example, nobody has used a nuke in war since ww2.
Re:Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables... by nyolfen on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @07:51PM (#24985717)
the threat of nukes guides all international political arrangements. what does the digital intelligence and coercion machinery guide?

you may not feel threatened by this arrangement now, but how confident do you feel that these tools will always be controlled by people you trust?