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Re:New political polarization casts rivals as alien, unlikab... by matwood on Saturday October 31, 2020 @08:34AM (#24950893)
What I see anecdotally is that the left has become more inclusive, and the right as become more extreme. People have fled the right either to no party or to the center left. That leaves behind the extremes on the right which have become emboldened by Trump and their shrinking bubble.

It's like evaporating water out of a glass of salt water. The water left behind becomes more and more salty. If you have ever had a salt water aquarium you'll know that you don't add salt water back to the tank, but fresh water in order to balance out the evaporation.

You mention racism. The same people may have been racist before, but now they are ok yelling it out loud because the only people left in their bubble think the same way (Trump may or may not be racist, but he certainly stokes this fire). And this is why it's difficult, because if someone tells me they do not want black people living in their neighborhood, I'm going to tell them that's a racist statement.

Re:New political polarization casts rivals as alien, unlikab... by throwaway894345 on Saturday October 31, 2020 @09:23AM (#24951262)
> What I see anecdotally is that the left has become more inclusive, and the right as become more extreme.

I think there are some on the right who have become more extreme, but I interpret this as a reflex against a rapidly growing extreme leftism (apologies to anyone offended by this term; I don’t mean it as a value judgment as much as a literalism). I’m a liberal, personally, and I certainly feel like the left is moving quickly leftward. I feel this way because there are a lot of people who call moderate liberals “Nazis” and “white supremacists” and so on. To give another example, 10 years ago I couldn’t imagine the media uncritically accepting the BLM racial narrative without asking about whether we should consider violent crime rates when we talk about disproportions in police killings (which isn’t to say that the BLM folks wouldn’t have a good, enlightening response). Maybe I’m wrong, but it certainly feels like a significant leftward shift. It also feels like the extreme left are less tolerant than most of the rest of the spectrum, and they even kind of own up to it by arguing that their intolerance is necessary to prevent other intolerance (Paradox of Tolerance); however, in many cases, their intolerance is marshaled against people who can’t credibly be considered “intolerant”—the Hispanic utility worker who was fired after a left-wing Twitter mob accused him of white supremacy for accidentally making an “ok sign” with his hand while cracking his knuckles, or the professor who was suspended for saying a Mandarin phrase (even prefacing that it was a mandarin phrase) that sounded vaguely like the N word, or the journalist who was almost fired for interviewing a black man, or the data scientist who was fired for quoting a prominent black researcher’s research on the efficacy of nonviolent protests, or etc etc etc. These people don’t seem intolerant to me, and yet they are met with intolerance.

My more controversial opinion is that this behavior drives some people to the far right. While I think Trump provokes these leftists and thus creates more far-right-wingers, I think this effect predates him and indeed his very viability as a political candidate couldn’t have happened without the earlier rise of extreme leftism. I could be wrong here, but this explanation jives with much of what I see. Note that this doesn’t absolve anyone of moving to the far right, but it’s important to try to understand the dynamics at play. Notably, if I’m right about the dynamics, the best way to combat the far right is by moderating the left.

> You mention racism. The same people may have been racist before, but now they are ok yelling it out loud because the only people left in their bubble think the same way (Trump may or may not be racist, but he certainly stokes this fire). And this is why it's difficult, because if someone tells me they do not want black people living in their neighborhood, I'm going to tell them that's a racist statement.

I don’t know many people who would object to that definition of racism. I think people have a problem with more abstract definitions of racism which would encompass our utility worker, journalist, data scientist, and professor examples above and not, for example, people on the left who are opposed to mixed-race relationships and cultural exchange.

Re:New political polarization casts rivals as alien, unlikab... by matwood on Saturday October 31, 2020 @09:43AM (#24951415)
Thank you for some discussion.

> My more controversial opinion is that this behavior drives some people to the far right.

Extreme begets extreme. If I claimed I knew who went extreme first, it wouldn't matter and only lead to arguments without furthering the discussion. I will say though, that I think the left feels pushed to more extremes by how SCOTUS has gone down since 2015.

> Notably, if I’m right about the dynamics, the best way to combat the far right is by moderating the left.

I agree, but I also understand when the left claims their moderation has let them get run over.

I don't know what the fix is, but I've watched family and friendships torn apart over this. It's a very sad situation.

Re:New political polarization casts rivals as alien, unlikab... by throwaway894345 on Saturday October 31, 2020 @01:14PM (#24953206)
I generally agree. I’m not arguing that “the left started it”, only that some people argue that this all originated with Trump and I think it goes back further than that.

Interestingly, I don’t think the left has been overrun by the right. It seems to me that liberalism was winning out circa 2010 (at least socially/culturally)—consider how quickly gay marriage became acceptable and even celebrated. I don’t think extreme leftism was a response to some rising tide of conservatism (whether extreme or moderate), but maybe I’m wrong.

In whatever case, I think the solution is to return to more moderate, liberal values (obviously im biased as a liberal), but specifically for all of us to foster an atmosphere of understanding. If we can foster intolerance in the name of tolerance, maybe we can foster genuine tolerance? If nothing else, I’m optimistic that the next generation will not see the point in our petty partisanship and want something better for our country. I hope I’m right.