I stated that we should come to a consensus on topics - not rely on intuition. Science is a great example of a field that relies on critical thinking and debunking theories, but also in our ability to build consensus about how the world works. Disagreeing with the consensus should be encouraged, but it needs to be done with the facts (experimental results) - not just stating that something is unknown (a statement that can be applied to 99.9% of science if taken at face value).
> Yes, but as it, perspectives are often misperceived as facts
Agreed.
> You can still make decisions, just be honest about the fact that they are based on speculation
In complicated topics, this should be a given. But agreed in general.
> There is a plausible theory that QAnon is actually a state sponsored psy op
I have heard that, but my point was that QAnon is not a "typical" political group. Regardless of its founders (foreign actors, bored kids, whatever), there should be a heavy dose of skepticism when looking at their theories, especially when many of their theories have been debunked but are continued to be peddled.
> The QAnon phenomenon is also being used as a justification for censorship
It is, and that is a bad thing. Unfortunately, we need to do something to correct the amplification problem of social media. Now we can disagree on the extent of the role that private companies should play in this policing, but it should be illegal to yell "fire" in a crowded theory - even virtually.
> I'm disturbed by the percentage of the population that is more concerned about conspiracy theories ... about children, than they are about the possibility that children are actually being sexually abused
The beauty of "save the children" is that it is impossible to call it out as coordinated propaganda without being accused of not caring about children. Of course I care about children. But I am also concerned that the upswell of social media was not natural.
> don't forget that you are guessing at what the right thing to so is
I am, but we as a society have always faced these dilemmas. Before social media, there were libel and slander laws that discouraged outright lies. With social media, however, there is almost nothing to gain from going after someone who posts slander. There is a fundamental problem when any random person can write whatever they dream of as fact and then amplify it to millions of people through social media.
I don't have all the right answers. But I think we need to agree that something should be done to prevent this amplification of propaganda. And then let's figure out how to fix it together.
> These are complicated topics, and I certainly don't have all the answers.
Same. This site is one of the only places where these topics can still be discussed without devolving into flame wars. So thank you for that.
You did indeed, and I responded:
>> We should be striving to come to a consensus on topics
> Not me, not if we are lying to ourselves in the process. If something is literally unknown, it should be acknowledged thusly. We're not comfortable relying on pure intuition in science or programming, why do it in the rest of life if it isn't necessary? Shall we think logically and scientifically, as we're told, or shall we not? Pick a side.
> Disagreeing with the consensus should be encouraged, but it needs to be done with the facts (experimental results) - not just stating that something is unknown (a statement that can be applied to 99.9% of science if taken at face value).
Oh? Things that have had(!) a "conspiracy theory" label attached (by the media, the experts, etc) are regularly asserted to be False, here and elsewhere, with absolutely no requirement for facts or evidence. But asserting that something is unknown, which is the actual state of affairs, needs to be done with facts (which are not known, hence the epistemic status of unknown)?
> I have heard that, but my point was that QAnon is not a "typical" political group. Regardless of its founders (foreign actors, bored kids, whatever), there should be a heavy dose of skepticism when looking at their theories, especially when many of their theories have been debunked but are continued to be peddled.
I agree 100% with skepticism - but that's not my complaint. My complaint is that skepticism towards those who say (without evidence) that it "is X", or "its followers believe Y" seems to be ~not allowed, that they are accepted enthusiastically as False, just because they have had a label attached. This seems not too unlike how members of ethnic minority classes were described in the media in the not too distant past, also without appropriate accompanying evidence.
> It is, and that is a bad thing. Unfortunately, we need to do something to correct the amplification problem of social media. Now we can disagree on the extent of the role that private companies should play in this policing, but it should be illegal to yell "fire" in a crowded theory - even virtually.
Agreed. But what do you think about two adjacent ideas:
1. Does it seem optimal that journalists seem to have an odd lack of interest in certain stories?
2. If "fake news" is really such a massive societal risk, does it seem at all odd that there is no initiative whatsoever to investigate some of the more pervasive stories and prove(!) then False, once and for all? Or, that there is no bi-partisan effort (or even discussion of such a thing in the mainstream) to develop a plan for teaching critical thinking and epistemology skills to the public? If this problem is genuinely so dangerous, why do we do nothing about it other than censorship (which can be used for both good and evil, which is not true of the other approaches)?
> The beauty of "save the children" is that it is impossible to call it out as coordinated propaganda without being accused of not caring about children. Of course I care about children. But I am also concerned that the upswell of social media was not natural.
The degree to which the public truly cares about children compared to how much they care about implementing broad censorship, and fast, seems a bit misbalanced to me. I suspect that there may actually be the possibility that the general public doesn't even think about such philosophical ideas, similar to how they don't seem to think much about other things like quantum mechanics, yak-herding, or 18th century art.
Does this seem possible?
> I am, but we as a society have always faced these dilemmas. Before social media, there were libel and slander laws that discouraged outright lies. With social media, however, there is almost nothing to gain from going after someone who posts slander. There is a fundamental problem when any random person can write whatever they dream of as fact and then amplify it to millions of people through social media.
Agreed. And it seems like the general consensus (in the general public and here on HN) of what we should do about this problem has arrived at censorship, as much as is required. And this consensus has been reached with no serious/honest debate, here or elsewhere. Each to his own, but I am very much "not cool" with this. But then perhaps I put too much faith in wisdom from times past - maybe censorship of non-sanctioned ideas, with no reasoned public debate, really is the optimum approach. I mean, who am I to disagree, right? Who do I even think I am!
> This site is one of the only places where these topics can still be discussed without devolving into flame wars. So thank you for that.
Likewise...a willingness to engage in dialogue on such matters is quite rare, so I do appreciate your efforts despite our (likely minor) differences, which is probably not at all reflected in my tone.
Exactly, and the reason for this is fundamental: reality is largely unknown. Whether we choose to acknowledge that is up to each of us, but it doesn't change the underlying fact.
> We should be striving to come to a consensus on topics
Not me, not if we are lying to ourselves in the process. If something is literally unknown, it should be acknowledged thusly. We're not comfortable relying on pure intuition in science or programming, why do it in the rest of life if it isn't necessary? Shall we think logically and scientifically, as we're told, or shall we not? Pick a side.
> and to share perspectives
Yes, but as it, perspectives are often misperceived (and in turn, mass-broadcast) as facts (distorting the perceptions of reality of unknow numbers of other people). I imagine you can see the harm in the case of conspiracy theories, but can you see the possible harm of it outside of that sphere? Does your thinking methodology change, depending on the scenario? Have you ever spent any serious time thinking about such things?
I suspect people here would prefer that conspiracy theorists tighten up their epistemology levels - but if we refuse to do the same, who are we to be lecturing others?
> not to just throw our hands up because we might not have perfect knowledge.
I've never understood this style of thinking - just because one acknowledges reality as it is, you have to throw up your hands and give up? Why? You can still make decisions, just be honest about the fact that they are based on speculation.
> Regarding QAnon, while media stories might be sensationalist, QAnon itself is a disturbing trend. QAnon originated in conspiracy theories (on 4chan) and is still promoting some pretty fringe theories.
95% agree, except for the origin. There is a plausible theory that QAnon is actually a state sponsored psy op. You have to admit, the QAnon story (and coverage in the media) has been incredibly effective in shaping widespread public opinion on the epistemic validity of not just QAnon, but conspiracy theories in general. The effects of this can be observed right here on HN, a community with far above average critical thinking skills. Surely you realize that propaganda has always existed, right? Is it impossible(!) that this is a new, more sophisticated form of propaganda? (Here is an example of where not lying to ourselves might be a good idea - or at least, trying to.)
> In my opinion, the real danger of QAnon is their use of social media to take people further and further into their theories.
This will eventually materialize into a (currently unknowable) harm of magnitude X.
The QAnon phenomenon is also being used as a justification for censorship, which will eventually materialize into a harm of magnitude Y.
Which is higher, X or Y? Do we know? Do we care? Or, will we instead assert as "fact" that such concerns are "gish-galloping* (ie: choosing to lie to ourselves, and broadcasting those lies into the minds of others)?
> I was disturbed when the "save the children" campaign was in full force on Facebook/Twitter. I did not need a media story to tell me about QAnon in these moments, I could personally click on stories and follow the rabbit hole back to QAnon. They led to conspiracy theories about politicians trafficking children, the "deep state," etc. These were not hidden - they were only a couple clicks away from the "save the children" posts that were trending. These types of conspiracy theories do not contribute to any sort of rational discourse - they only push people farther into the QAnon group.
I'm disturbed by the percentage of the population that is more concerned about conspiracy theories (with no concern for the actual magnitude of harm such theories cause [1]) about children, than they are about the possibility that children are actually being sexually abused.
Do you believe the whole Epstein thing is a nothingburger? Totally made up by QAnon? Do you perceive that your mind contains the sum total knowledge of all that occurs on planet Earth with respect to the abuse of children? Of course, it seems that way, but if you stop and think, are you able to realize that you are only aware of the subset of knowledge that you have consumed? Maybe you can when thinking directly and abstractly about the notion...but what about when you don't stop and think, and are just going about your day....are you consciously aware at all times that you only have access to a small portion of reality, or do you actually accept as fact that it seems like you have access to the entirety of reality? Have you ever considered in depth the potential consequences of this phenomenon, and how it can be (and historically has been) exploited?
> I believe Facebook (and Youtube, Twitter, Instagram, etc) has the responsibility to not allow these "rabbit holes" that feed conspiracy theories. Otherwise, anyone with enough influence to generate these echo chambers can use them to influence large swaths of the public into believing things that have no basis in reality.
You're not wrong, but don't forget that you are guessing at what the right thing to so is, and that the X vs Y comparison above is very much in play - Mother Nature does not require our agreement when setting the state of reality.
[1] ...in cases where the accusation has had a conspiracy theory label attached to it.
EDIT: I reckon I've hit my comment cap for the day so may not be able to respond to criticism in a timely manner, but I enthusiastically encourage any you may have. These are complicated topics, and I certainly don't have all the answers.