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Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by closeparen on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @03:51PM (#24911081)
A sister team at my company is quite proud of its rules engine that allows non-programmers to quickly implement business policies using its DSL in a web UI.

With the years and postmortems gone by it has grown half-assed attempts at version control, code review, unit testing, deployment pipelines, etc. Now it’s very obviously just a shitty, hobbled software development environment. It’s used primarily because the team that owns it is aggressive about blocking design reviews for “duplication of effort” if you propose to use normal software development tools anywhere near its domain.

Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by TheOperator on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @04:58PM (#24911802)
>version control, code review, unit testing, deployment pipelines, etc.

This is absolutely one of my biggest pain-points with "no-code" solutions. Even trying to track revisions to something relatively simple like a word document over time is a big pain compared to tracking revisions to source code or a configuration file. Trying to get a grip on how people are fiddling with a no-code product from the audit logs is incredibly difficult, never mind trying to track down a change from 1 year ago. Often changes won't appear on audit logs at all or they won't be explained in enough detail and the format of the logs will have little resemblance to how things are actually configured. You can use some no-code solution to modify a SQL query under the hood and the audit log will just say "THIS USER CHANGED THIS QUERY" and that's all the detail you get! It's frequently difficult to explain to your peers how you're going to change a system without showing them a bunch of screenshots and going "Well I'm going to tick this box and move the green rectangle over here and link it to the orange oval". Rolling back changes can often be impossible without rolling back EVERY change between now and when the first incorrect change was made.

I use code, and these problems just don't happen! It's only when people are using some wonderful "user-friendly" solution that things get so jacked up.

Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by ptmcc on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @05:49PM (#24912342)
Whenever someone is championing a "no code" or "configuration driven" solution for business processes all of these things you just described are alarm bells ringing in my head.

Especially when it is anything involving finances, even tangentially.

Making it easy for non-engineers to change business rules on the fly without a code deploy sounds nice in theory, until you think about it for a few more minutes.

Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by Thorrez on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @03:37AM (#24916219)
Configuration can be written in text format and check into version control, so I don't see a problem with "configuration driven".
Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by brundolf on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @06:51PM (#24912980)
What if a no-code system was built atop a text-based language that lived in a regular file-system workspace? The "no-code" part would just be a fancy IDE, but the code would still exist to be edited directly, tracked with git, whatever else.
Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by lmm on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @10:18PM (#24914331)
You'd need to make sure that edits in that fancy IDE can be sensibly diffed/merged at the level of that text-based language. I've never seen good diff/merge for a graphical format, so I think this kind of "no-code" ends up being just code.
Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by lolc on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @07:35PM (#24913300)
I'm doing something like this for a system that's configured via web-interface. It has a stable, readable export format which I'm tracking with Git. So we can actually have a diff and reviews of the changes.
Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by jeremyjh on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @09:42PM (#24914097)
I think that is what Salesforce DX is trying to be, but it is hard to say for sure since no one has ever used it.
Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by jrumbut on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @01:51AM (#24915673)
They store so much, why not a changelog? It baffles me.

The other thing is there may be no way for me to, say, get a list of all the forms associated with a certain table and the fields they contain in some programmatic way (without browser automation, which is something I use not infrequently with a no-code system) and APIs that are almost complete but not quite.

Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by TheOperator on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @07:22AM (#24917494)
I'm having flashbacks to attempting keystroke automation which works 90% reliably until a field is added via an update and breaks EVERYTHING until you workaround it.
Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by musingsole on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @04:24PM (#24911434)
I was almost bitten by a project like this, despite ample protests the whole way long that "configuration" was just becoming a "crappy programming language". All too often I still have to deal with someone who thinks because logic hinges on a value in a JSON file, they've magically abstracted away the concern of what it is that the code should be doing.
Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by mmmm2 on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @09:01PM (#24913836)
It reminds me of Ant configuration files. They have loops and if else:

  <for list="a,b,c,d,e" param="letter">
    <sequential>
      <echo>Letter @{letter}</echo>
    </sequential>
  </for>
I call it The Devil's Lisp :).
Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by dahhakd on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @10:29PM (#24914401)
Man, I'm not from the Java world, but these days I had to deal with it for a project and had to mess with ant builds, which I have never dealt with before. I was totally baffled. I just do not understand why would anyone subject themselfs to such levels of pain.
Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by int_19h on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:44PM (#24933966)
I take it you haven't seen EJB2.

Let's just say that it was a more brutal age, and we were more accustomed to such horrors. :)

Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by Pokepokalypse on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @09:45PM (#24914123)
oh, then you'll love terraform.
Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by closeparen on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @10:16PM (#24914321)
At least what you're writing down in Terraform is not actually a procedure.
Re:The No-Code Generation is arriving by Karellen on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @07:24PM (#24913229)