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Re:I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps by WarOnPrivacy on Saturday October 24, 2020 @04:28PM (#24881749)
> Pay your taxes so that your military can keep an eye on the jackwads who do this

My taxes have frequently paid for US Gov led torture. If we ever hold China accountable in a meaningful way, it won't be due to authentic moral outrage.

Re:I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps by adventured on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:31PM (#24882100)
> My taxes have frequently paid for US Gov led torture. If we ever hold China accountable in a meaningful way, it won't be due to authentic moral outrage.

Interestingly your premise is a form of forever torture that forever punishes and condemns entire nations of people even if they weren't directly (or even indirectly) responsible for the actions of a small group of people.

Every American is denied the ability to have authentic moral outrage because of what a very small number of people did eg at Abu Ghraib? I disagree. That's an absurd premise and it means a nation can never change its behavior or move beyond past mistakes. In fact, your premise encourages a nation to never change, because you're forever condemned no matter what you do.

It's a collectivist punishment system. The kind of thing that has been used to apply inherited or associative morality based on nation, group or race for thousands of years. It's straight out of the old testament.

Let's examine that however. So because of things that happened in the past, or things outside of your direct control, a person or government decades or centuries later can never hold a position of "authentic moral outrage." How about people that were disgusted by acts of US torture and voted their conscience accordingly (electing Obama instead of the war hawk McCain, for example), do they get to have authentic moral outrage? Can you clarify how your all-powerful god-like moral ruling works in practice?

The French can never have authentic moral outrage because Napoleon murdered millions of people and the French did horrible things in Vietnam? Is there an expiration timer on any of this?

The Russians can never have authentic moral outrage because of what happened under the USSR and because of what Putin is doing currently?

The people of Belgium are forever condemned to never possess authentic moral outrage because of King Leopold II?

The people of Cambodia can possess no authentic moral outrage, regardless of their involvement in the genocide and that condemnation shall last an eternity.

The Germans....

Shall I continue? These are all intentionally extreme examples to make a very obvious point.

The world found out about Abu Ghraib, and the US was shamed, humiliated, and Obama issued an executive order specifically banning the CIA's torture techniques in 2009 in response. The NDAA of 2016 also further restricted abusive interrogations. The people of the US were widely disgusted. It was very public as a matter, it was broadcast to the American people 24/7 for months. Culturally we had a large, very public debate over it as a nation. That was for a few dozen cases of torture. The world's superpower - which needed to have zero concern for the world's opinion - was very clearly humiliated by it and took action to prevent torture in the future (and yes, one can be reasonably skeptical of that being successful; as time goes on the US should be judged by its actions and not words on the matter).

Why should a nation of people or its large government/s be comprehensively denied "authentic moral outrage" because of the actions of an exceptionally small part of the population? A plainly absurd position to take on how morality should work.

Re:I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps by xxpor on Saturday October 24, 2020 @07:03PM (#24882590)
We've never done anything out of a moral outrage, or have been directly attacked (WW 2). In order to get the US Gov to care, you have to start costing capital money.

The only reason we got mad about Vietnam, Cuba, South America is not because of "Communism" as an abstract concept. It's because the government seized or threatened to seize assets. See also Pinochet. We had no problem with him.

The reason why this is relevant to China is that China has made a lot of people a lot of money. So they commit a genocide every so often. As long as it doesn't cost American capital money, we'll ignore it.

Why were people so up in arms about Cuba, but not Ethiopia? Well, Cuba is much closer, true. But the real issue was that people owned stuff in Cuba. There was no significant interest in Ethiopia.

Re:I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps by hcurtiss on Saturday October 24, 2020 @04:55PM (#24881895)
Certainly nothing like this, and our practices in war have always stood out as more humane than the other side. People sometimes point to Afghanistan, but I don’t remember out guys beheading anyone.
Re:I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps by tremon on Saturday October 24, 2020 @06:40PM (#24882471)
our practices in war have always stood out as more humane than the other side

Ok, then convince your side to submit to the UN-appointed war crimes tribunal in The Hague. As long as the The Hague Invasion Act is still in force, that claim is hollow.

Re:I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps by hcurtiss on Saturday October 24, 2020 @08:30PM (#24882949)
Just as soon as China does.
Re:I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps by WarOnPrivacy on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @12:52PM (#24909253)
On the other hand, there are many Americans who don't wait for China to lead their way.
Re:I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps by runarberg on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:03PM (#24881943)
This simply isn’t true. And even if it were, that is still no excuse. Terrible things happen in war. Innocent people die or get seriously scarred in war, often for decades to come after the war ends. Being “better then the opposing party” is no excuse and provides no comfort to the victims of war.
Re:I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps by llamaz on Saturday October 24, 2020 @07:09PM (#24882627)
This is the same narrative of the civilized Europeans that colonized the rest of the world and led to the genocide of the Native American (Indians) and the Australian aboriginals. Our side is human and anyone that falls short of your values is less than human. I'm not a moral relativist, we need only look at the physical and mental health of animals raised in different zoos to see that there is an objective morality and a basic minimum decency for how to treat our fellow humans. But if you are going to violate this ethical minimum, then you're narrative is the _only_ one that's ever been used. We're the good guys, they're the bad guys.

This goes back to the debate between Augustine, a former good vs evil Manichean, and Pelagius. One believed that "everyone is bad" and warned against excessive hubris, while the other believed that those who choose to do evil do so out of their own free will.

In the pre-9/11 world, there was the idea that torture was a relic of the past, and we had made moral progress beyond such barbarities. But it was the leading liberal democracy in the world, rather than some third world dictatorship, that reintroduced the practice.

The United States trained the guerillas that eventually became the Vietcong in Vietnam, and the country went to war under the Gulf of Tonkin false flag. Similarly, the United States invaded Iraq under the WMD charade. In Afghanistan, it promoted the Islamist fundamentalism of the mujahideen, in order to fight the USSR friendly government that the Afghans themselves elected. The mujahideen became the Taliban, and a similar story of is true of ISIS and al-qaeda (US trained them to do their dirty work then lost control of them)

I don't think the United States is the root of all evil. But it's important to realise that the Chinese don't think of their country as an evil dictatorship, the same way that you don't view your country as "the bad guys". Rather, as St Augustine put it in his doctrine of original sin, we are all "the bad guys" and we need to reflect on the worse demons of our nature.

We have forgotten the Augustinian lessons, indulging in excessive pride and hubris, and failing to reflect on the same pattern that has been occurring cyclically for millennia.

Re:I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps by hcurtiss on Saturday October 24, 2020 @08:27PM (#24882938)
Yeah, but some countries actually torture prisoners routinely. See the parent article. This idea that the US hasn’t routinely taken the high road is ridiculous. Just wait until China is the superpower. You’ll long for the bad ol’USA.
Re:I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps by llamaz on Saturday October 24, 2020 @08:40PM (#24882990)
Yes, and the United States regressed back towards those countries. I don't think the United States is the "bad guy" or the root of all evil, I don't think the West is either. I just don't think that they're the "good guy" that routinely exercises restraint, unless you compare it to an imaginary hypothetical.

I don't support China either - I don't believe in the "good vs evil" narrative that was alien to the Ancient Romans and Greek pagans. The idea that there's historical moral progress culminating in the values of the United States is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. In Hegel's philosophy of right, which was fashionable in Germany, he believed that history culminated in the values of the Prussian constitutional monarchy.

It's unlikely that China will become a superpower. The United States, in the next few years, will no longer hold world wide hegemony, as it seems to be distancing itself from Europe among other countries. It's also unlikely that we'll return to a bipolar world, similarly to the period of the Cold War. It's more likely that we're moving towards a multi-polar world.