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Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by gamblor956 on Saturday October 24, 2020 @01:39AM (#24877215)
Downloading a Youtube video with youtube-dl IS NOT violating copyright in the USA. Downloading videos may violate Youtube's TOS, but that's civil/contract law and not criminal and so the DMCA can't be used to enforce such TOS violations.

Downloading a Youtube video is making a copy. Whether it is a copyright violation depends on whether Youtube's license includes letting visitors make permanent copies, as this is considered a separate type of license. The TOS has nothing to do with it.

A person might share a video they don't own the copyright to, after downloading it from youtube with youtube-dl, but youtube-dl has no functionality in it to do such illegal sharing. It only has the time-shift functionality.

This is false. Also, time-shifting is not a a valid fair-use defense for material available on-demand, because the justification for time-shifting (as in the Betamax case) generally no longer exists. There are other fair use arguments that could be made, but time-shifting isn't one of them.

They had to cite a German legal ruling which found YouTube’s “rolling cipher” was an anti-circumvention device. But German court rulings have no bearing on US law, and Germany doesn't have a DMCA statute, so it is a specious claim, and the RIAA is just hoping an open source project won't be able to fund a legal defense.

I don't know if you're joking or not, but they cited a variety of US cases. Kazaa, Limewire, Napster, etc, are all US cases that all came down the same way: a tool intended primarily for copyright violations violates the DMCA, and in certain cases can even expose its developers to statutory damages under the copyright code.

It's Betamax time-shifting plus macrovision/video stabilizers all over again.

Nope, not even close for so many reasons already explained in this and other comments.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by _-___________-_ on Saturday October 24, 2020 @02:06AM (#24877298)
> Downloading a Youtube video is making a copy. Whether it is a copyright violation depends on whether Youtube's license includes letting visitors make permanent copies, as this is considered a separate type of license. The TOS has nothing to do with it.

YouTube is not the copyright owner (in almost all cases). Downloading a video with youtube-dl may not be a copyright violation if you already separately hold a suitable license, or are in fact the copyright owner yourself (as in the case of one of the grandparent comments).

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by gamblor956 on Saturday October 24, 2020 @03:47PM (#24881491)
Yeah, I should have worded that better. I was referring to Youtube's license with the RIAA, since Youtube doesn't provide a copyright license to its users for content licensed from third parties.

If the license between the RIAA (or other licensor) and Youtube allowed visitors to make permanent copies of Youtube streams, then downloading a Youtube video would not be a copyright violation. But generally, having entered into streaming and downloading licensing agreements with the RIAA before, I would be extremely surprised if the RIAA would enter into such a license with Youtube, as it would kill sales of digital music downloads if people could just download permanent copies of Youtube videos instead for free.

If you own the copyright and upload a video to Youtube, then it wouldn't be a copyright violation to download that video from Youtube.

[dead]
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by _-___________-_ on Saturday October 24, 2020 @04:44AM (#24877833)
Really? Why don't you enlighten us instead of making ad hominem attacks...
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by bartimus on Saturday October 24, 2020 @03:58AM (#24877680)
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a legal violation when you're downloading a copy from YouTube even though you're the original copyright owner of the video. Youtube has a license to distribute the copy according to their TOS. That license will be subjected to specific terms (streaming + DRM protection). It might not include allowing creators to circumvent those terms for archival purposes.
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by _-___________-_ on Saturday October 24, 2020 @04:14AM (#24877725)
"legal violation" is pretty vague. You might be disobeying their ToS, but it's not copyright infringement, since you own the copyright.
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by gamblor956 on Saturday October 24, 2020 @03:51PM (#24881515)
It's very possible to have a TOS violation but not a copyright violation if you're the copyright owner of the video being downloaded.

Owning the copyright means you don't violate the copyright in making a copy, but that doesn't mean you get to make that copy through any means; you still have to use legal means, and for a website, that means methods that are acceptable under the TOS of that website.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by rhabarba on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:46AM (#24878067)
Technically, even streaming is making a copy.
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by yebyen on Saturday October 24, 2020 @07:47AM (#24878587)
I haven't seen anyone else making this argument yet, but yes! Chunk by chunk, streamers copy bits into their buffers and discard them as they are done watching. Is that discarding required, when the same companies can charge extra for additional bandwidth usage (not for making additional copies, but for clogging up their pipes)

I'm not sure if this is going to be considered similar to taking a full copy but I'm also not sure what substantial purpose there would be for taking that full copy except for the (probably valid fair use) purpose of shifting access to manage time, location, or network conditions. Given that you pay separately for your bandwidth, and there is an incentive to conserve it, I don't see any way this isn't considered fair use without a sharing component.

Taking a copy is incidental to lawfully consuming the content that was provided in an authorized setting, whether that copy is stable or not. Nobody is hosting copies of YouTube content, paying the bandwidth and hosting bills so anonymous co-parties to the infringement can enjoy the content separately from the authorized channel, (it is not even suggested that anyone would want to do this.)

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by icebraining on Saturday October 24, 2020 @07:40AM (#24878557)
Legally, even running a program is making a copy (from disk to RAM): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAI_Systems_Corp._v._Peak_Comp....

I think the question is whether the license YouTube implicitly provides to copy so one can stream also extends to downloading to a file. Probably not.

Why that should be youtube-dl's fault is yet another question, of course.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by vageli on Saturday October 24, 2020 @11:49AM (#24879912)
> Legally, even running a program is making a copy (from disk to RAM): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAI_Systems_Corp._v._Peak_Comp....

> I think the question is whether the license YouTube implicitly provides to copy so one can stream also extends to downloading to a file. Probably not.

> Why that should be youtube-dl's fault is yet another question, of course.

TV broadcasters do not give you a license to copy their content but it's legal to record TV. Why is youtube any different?

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by gamblor956 on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:08PM (#24881967)
It was legal to record TV, using VCRs and DVRs, for time-shifted viewing, due to the alternative being that the content could not be consumed at all (at the time of the Betamax case, episodes were broadcast once, and generally not re-broadcast unless they were extremely popular, and were not available for purchase individually or even as part of a collection).

Today, there are a multitude of options for consuming TV content, and due to the (recent) creation of time-shifted licenses, the fair use justification for standalone-DVRs has mostly gone out the window (which is why they're not for sale anymore; for example, Tivo no longer offers standalone DVRs; Hulu, cable companies pay for time-shifted viewing).

As Youtube was always on-demand to begin with, the time-shifting justification for recording TV in the Betamax case never applied.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by vageli on Saturday October 24, 2020 @07:59PM (#24882843)
Are you saying that I can't still legally record TV on my VCR or DVR?
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by gamblor956 on Saturday October 24, 2020 @03:59PM (#24881586)
Legally, even running a program is making a copy (from disk to RAM):

Yes, that is why 17 USC § 117 provides that making a transitory copy necessary to run the program (such as a RAM copy), or an archival copy of the data needed to run the program, are both explicitly not violations of copyright.

I think the question is whether the license YouTube implicitly provides to copy so one can stream also extends to downloading to a file. Probably not.

It does not. Youtube does not explicitly, or implicitly, provide the user a license of any type. Youtube has licensed the right to provide a temporary copy of a video to a user.

Why that should be youtube-dl's fault is yet another question, of course.

It normally wouldn't be...except that some idiot decided to include unit tests to make sure that youtube-dl could be used to download music videos covered by RIAA licenses. That basically makes the RIAA's case, especially since youtube-dl must be regularly updated to handle Google's countermeasures.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by icebraining on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:23AM (#24884951)
Right, but 17 USC§117 only applies to programs, not video. Who provides me the license to copy the video from the buffer of the network card to main RAM, and then to GPU ram, and then to my screen?
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by gamblor956 on Saturday October 24, 2020 @03:53PM (#24881523)
Technically, even streaming is making a copy.

Yes, that is why streamed content is now generally covered by streaming-specific licenses, as noted above.