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Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by smogcutter on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:52PM (#24872037)
It’s interesting that his analysis of war elephants has a lot of parallels to his thoughts about chemical weapons. In the hands of a sufficiently advanced military, both are an expensive, complicated solution in search of a problem, and both are easily neutralized by a peer competitor.

https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-ch...

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by padobson on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:16PM (#24872256)
both are easily neutralized by a peer competitor.

This is what I was thinking the whole time. Rome was surrounded by peer competitors, and OP says their most effective use of elephants was against non-peer competitors like Spain or Gaul.

So why would competitors continue to use elephants? Not because Roma was susceptible, but because THEIR boarder competitors were susceptible.

Elephants were not worth it to defeat well-trained troops, but were more than worth it to defeat smaller, less disciplined armies/militias.

My guess is that Rome's peers were often using elephants to keep smaller competitors in check, and only used them against Rome because they happen to have them anyway.

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by mcguire on Friday October 23, 2020 @06:50PM (#24875182)
IIRC, horses.

Cavalry can't be used around elephants unless the horses are specifically trained to be around elephants. Rome itself of the Republican/early Imperial era didn't use cavalry, although some of their allies did. As a hypothesis, those using elephants may have been fighting entities that used cavalry.

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by setr on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:22PM (#24875442)
Perhaps not coincidentally the same can be said of chemical warfare -- not so great in large scale war, but fairly effective against poor, untrained militia and enforcing order through fear on civilian populations
Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by dddddaviddddd on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:00PM (#24874113)
> So why would competitors continue to use elephants?

Not specifically for Rome's competitors, but elephants were kept also for prestige reasons in other regions, as described in this follow-up article:

https://acoup.blog/2019/08/09/collections-war-elephants-part...

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by thaumasiotes on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:49PM (#24872553)
> It’s interesting that his analysis of war elephants has a lot of parallels to his thoughts about chemical weapons.

Well, both technologies find themselves in the same situation; they are well understood by the militaries of their day, and those militaries have no interest in using them. It's not surprising that the same results might come about for the same reasons.

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by sandworm101 on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:18PM (#24872273)
>>in order to produce mass casualties in battlefield conditions, a chemical attacker has to deploy tons – and I mean that word literally – of this stuff.

While I do agree with much of what this guy has to say about elephants, he is totally wrong about chemical weapons. We don't use mustard gas because it would indeed require tons of gas and be ineffective, but chemical weapons have evolved in the last 100 years. Modern chemical weapons do not need tons.

Novichok literally translates to "new thing". Such nerve agents were developed in the 60s/70s/80s. Infinitesimal amounts of this stuff will kill. Hazmat suits and gas masks are irrelevant when one gram might contain 5000 lethal doses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent#Effects_and_cou...

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by jcranmer on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:17PM (#24872828)
Well, how much does it take to create a cloud of poisonous gas that is sufficiently concentrated to induce lethality and also spreads reasonably quickly that people can't escape it?

Bret gives the example of the Tokyo terrorist attack that released sarin in several crowded subway cars... and killed 12 people. Grenades would have killed far more people far more quickly... and that's the point: chemical weapons are far less effective at delivering death than explosives are.

Edit: Wikipedia gives 7mg/m³ for a lethal concentration for one of the Novichok agents, 28mg/m³ for sarin.

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by Retric on Friday October 23, 2020 @06:23PM (#24874942)
Dispersal is a well studied problem: https://fas.org/programs/bio/chemweapons/delivery.html

But to simplify, cluster mutinous are more effective vs troops than a single large detonation. Similarly, rather than starting from a single source you want to spread the weapon from a large number of points. By comparison to 7mg/m3 a 1 metric ton weapon could ideally cover a square kilometer to a thickness of 30m and concentration of 30mg/m3.

Notably, exposure time plays a major role in lethality so covering a wider area makes it much harder to escape from.

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by mcguire on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:15PM (#24875396)
How long does the gas cloud last, in various wind conditions?
Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by Retric on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:28PM (#24875491)
Really depends on local conditions, but as a benchmark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack

Estimates of the death toll range from at least 281 people[3] to 1,729.[14] and 3,600 patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms in 3 hospitals supported by MSF[5]

However, it was considered safe enough for the UN to inspect the area the next day.

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by throwaway_pdp09 on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:22AM (#24877982)
Please provide a link when quoting from elsewhhere.

Also you're badly overlooking the obvious. In full "...killing 12 people,[1][2] severely injuring 50, and causing temporary vision problems for nearly 1,000 others"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by autocorr on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:28PM (#24872921)
That's not the main point in the series on chemical weapons though. The main point is that modern armies are mobile and well equipped ("the modern system") and that chemical weapons are only well suited to stationary, fixed opponents that are poorly equipped. However, if you are fighting fixed position, poorly equipped opponents there are better and cheaper alternatives that pose less of a risk of self-harm (and war crimes).

In both the posts about elephants and chemical weapons, the theme is the same: they are not useful nor practical given the circumstances so the states make the rational decision not to use them.

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by smogcutter on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:08PM (#24872755)
The wikipedia article for sarin gas is also extremely frightening, but the example Bret gives of the Tokyo subway attack shows that it’s probably less effective than advertised in a modern military context. The bar isn’t “is this stuff deadly”, it’s is it deadly enough to overcome the expense, complication, and incompatibility with highly mobile modern doctrine to make it worth using on a militarily relevant scale over conventional options.

I’m certainly no expert, so I’m not going to go any further with “is this poison poisonous enough”, but that wikipedia article at least doesn’t seem to make the case.

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by sandworm101 on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:15PM (#24872802)
The tokyo attack was unprofessional. A military attack would be exponentially more effective. Sarin is also tame compared to some of the more nasty stuff out there.
Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by jcranmer on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:31PM (#24872950)
How would militaries be exponentially more effective? As far as I'm aware, the military can't magically change the laws of gaseous diffusion.
Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by Retric on Friday October 23, 2020 @06:18PM (#24874895)
A major avenue of research in chemical weapons was efficient delivery. https://fas.org/programs/bio/chemweapons/delivery.html

But to simplify, you don’t just release a gas on it’s own you need a dispersal system like an explosive.

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by a1369209993 on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:59PM (#24876006)
Well, yes, that's kind of the point: given the ability to deliver a explosive to your enemy's position, what makes it worthwhile to include (generally expensive and inconvenient to tranport) chemical weapon material rather than additional explosive and maybe some shrapnel. If it's that the area remains dangerous longer, then congrats, you have impaired your own ability to maneuver into or through that area once the enemy retreats.
Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by Retric on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:13PM (#24876362)
WWII shows the absolutely mind boggling amount of bombs you can drop on an area without actually killing that many people. After buildings have already been hit once they make repeated strikes less effective. Chemical weapons are pound for pound vastly more deadly, especially as a follow up and more importantly disable people tying up resources for medical treatment and evacuation.

The most recent example is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack which killed or incapacitated ~5,000 with a few rockets. It also acted at least in the short term as area denial which can be extremely useful.

PS: In terms of fighting a near parity army, simply using tents separated by sandbag walls makes bombs or rocket strikes significantly less effective. Add even the threat of chemical weapons and things become significantly more difficult. http://armymomstrong.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/2-milita...

Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by sandworm101 on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:04PM (#24875316)
Military munitions are engineered dispersal devices. They do a far far better job than plastic bags and umbrellas.
Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by cortesoft on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:09PM (#24873474)
Is it nastier than a conventional explosive weapon, though, at least for military purposes?
Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by sandworm101 on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:02PM (#24875295)
Yes. A conventional explosive kills in the immediate area. These things pollute, killing for days/weeks/months.
Re:War Elephants, Part II: Elephants Against Wolves (2019) by mattmanser on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:41PM (#24875915)
That's not even the main thrust of his arguments against why chemical weapons are useless.