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Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by chapium on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:19AM (#24870381)
This is a fundamental problem with blockchains, and it cannot be understated.
Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by endori97 on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:37AM (#24870604)
Bram Cohen's chia would disagree with you. Something to keep your eye on.
Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by chapium on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @10:45AM (#24907909)
Thanks for the heads up!
Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by cryptica on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:51AM (#24870782)
They don't all use a lot of electricity. Proof of Stake blockchains use very little electricity and don't require specialized hardware. Lisk (LSK) is DPoS and is a good example but there are many others like that.
Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by googthrowaway42 on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:32AM (#24870550)
Blockchains exist for situations in which the participants in a transaction or system as a whole do not trust one another. You will always pay a price for that. Centralized systems are much more efficient but they depend on trust. In the cases where that trust breaks down or shouldn't have been given in the first place, it tends to create problems that are astronomically more costly than if a trustless system was used in the first place.
Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by rspeele on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:54AM (#24870825)
What caused me to get out of Bitcoin was that in reality, the level of trust Bitcoin required from me was much too high compared to traditional banking. I had a few thousand dollars worth and I became quite paranoid that my coins could be exfiltrated at any time due to:

* The Bitcoin client software I downloaded (I didn't build from source, and even if I did, I wouldn't have read the entire source first, and even if I did, I could get Ken Thompson'd)

* A computer virus delivered in a game I install, or hardware drivers I update, that would be virtually undetectable until it's too late

* A fire that destroys my home / somebody compromising off-site backup of my private key (pick one or the other risk)

* An untrustworthy exchange or an exchange that is unfortunately compromised at the moment I choose to transform them into Real Money(tm) -- while I kept my coins in a wallet off an exchange, I would still need to turn them into USD someday since the dream of paying for ordinary things directly with Bitcoin is wheezing on life support

Some of those concerns can be mitigated with a hardware wallet, but not all, and you still must have faith in the people who designed the hardware wallet and the manufacturer who actually built it.

At least with traditional banking, if my trust is violated I usually have some recourse by which I can recover my money. E.g. if my PC is hacked and the hacker transfers money from my bank account, as long as I see that happen within a few days I can probably have the bank stop it and get my money back. With crypto one false move and you lose your stuff, do not pass go.

In short, the "trustlessness" protects me from a pretty low-risk problem -- I would say practically a hypothetical problem at least in the U.S. -- but exposes me to a high-risk problem.

Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by jdmichal on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:06PM (#24870943)
This right here is IMO the fundamental heart of the argument. Things like reversible transactions and such are features that were built into the banking system, not bugs. It really comes down to a question of which feature set is valued more by an individual. The attempt to frame this in moralistic terms is just typical tech holy wars.
Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by rspeele on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:46PM (#24871977)
On a philosophical basis I do like the idea that no one person, nation, or corporation has control over the currency. And the irreversable nature of transactions is something I could accept, if I felt it was possible for me to have complete confidence in the security of my wallet.

But just the software-based ways that I could potentially be stolen from are too plausible to ignore. I have never felt that I could say with total certainty that my system is not compromised or vulnerable to compromise. Even a bug written with no malice could be my undoing. Working in the software industry has given me very little faith in the infallibility of software, both open and closed source.

Of course many people hold large quantities of crypto and are fine. But a few have it lost or stolen. Even super simple attacks sometimes work, like the malware that would poll the system clipboard waiting for it to contain for a BTC public key, and if found, swap it with one owned by the virus-writer -- so that you inadvertently paste the thief's key in as the destination for the transfer you're about to initiate. When I first heard about that attack, I thought it was clever and had to really think: hmm, would I have fallen for that? Usually I double check, but if they were smart enough to generate a large set of wallet public keys so they could replace the destination with one that starts with the same few characters, I probably could've been duped at some moment of carelessness.

Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by epx on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:21PM (#24871111)
Bitcoin was very useful to me - it taught me the services the bank and the justice system offer are worth their cost.
Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by theresa45 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @08:40PM (#24891610)
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Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by save_ferris on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:48AM (#24870749)
> In the cases where that trust breaks down or shouldn't have been given in the first place, it tends to create problems that are astronomically more costly than if a trustless system was used in the first place.

Is this actually true? My mind immediately goes to credit card fraud as an example, which definitely isn't more costly than if a purely trustless system was introduced. The cost of fraud is baked into using a credit card, and credit card vendors have built ever-improving technology to cut down on fraud on their end.

How is that more expensive than a trustless system that would require everyone to move to?

Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by googthrowaway42 on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:05PM (#24870938)
In the example of the credit card system, the misplaced trust I am talking about would be misplaced trust in the payment processing networks themselves (e.g. Visa, Mastercard).

This could be fraud (unlikely I think) or pathological behavior such as banning people or organizations from their networks for political reasons (this already happens).

Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by save_ferris on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:00PM (#24871520)
So organizations shouldn’t be able to remove people’s access to credit or accounts for any reason? If you take that away, you completely remove the ability to police money laundering and other kinds of financial crime (crypto is already a favorite technology of money launderers).

Legislation can (and should be IMO) written to provide users of big software systems more rights, but completely removing authority creates conditions for limitless money laundering, no? How does a government govern a blockchain?

Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by googthrowaway42 on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:47PM (#24871988)
I'm not talking about money laundering and financial crime, I'm talking about removing people's access to the banking and credit system due to their political beliefs.
Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by save_ferris on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:04PM (#24872151)
It sounds like your solution to the problem is to take away the ability to remove people from the system altogether, no? If that’s the case, then you open up a whole new set of problems. There are far easier and cheaper ways to guarantee legitimate access to banking than rebuilding and migrating the entire system.
Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by googthrowaway42 on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:06PM (#24872733)
I don't think so. The nature of systems it that they tend to become corrupt if they can be corrupted.
Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by save_ferris on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:15PM (#24874263)
Cryptocurrencies aren’t exempt from that, the 2018 Bitcoin boom and bust was likely caused by one whale account[0] manipulating Tether. By your argument, Bitcoin will become corrupted because we know it can be corrupted.

0: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.technologyreview.com/2019/1...

Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by googthrowaway42 on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:29PM (#24874400)
The only way bitcoin can become corrupted is if someone gains control of >50% of the hashing power of the network.

I'm talking about the integrity of the system itself, not actors within it. George Soros famously did the same thing with the British Pound but the issue with the British Pound is that it is a fiat currency that can be devalued at the whim of a handful of people controlling the system itself regardless of market forces (aka the participants in the system). When Soros or that bitcoin whale "manipulate the market" they are still acting within the system.

Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by JoeAltmaier on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:02PM (#24871539)
Part of the digital currency deal is, that kind of privacy. Legislation may have to adapt? 'Money laundering' is avoiding taxes or hiding income. So change the rules about taxing money. Maybe a 'transfer tax' or some such, to take a (very small) cut on every transaction.
Re:Ethereum set to become first blockchain to settle $1T in ... by save_ferris on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:20PM (#24871730)
If cryptocurrencies are private enough to obfuscate transactions to the point that authorities can’t monitor illegal financial activity, how can the system also be transparent enough to effectively tax users? Isn’t taxation a centralized financial construct, in that a central authority (government) assesses taxes? If the coins built today become the mainstays of crypto transactions and don’t have a concept of a transfer tax, how will one ever be added to the system? The entire system seems to be built from the perspective that it’s “our playground, our rules”, but why governments ever allow that?