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Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by m_eiman on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:52AM (#24868916)
Such as "the right parents", which in many cases is a pretty efficient gate keeper.
Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by laurent92 on Friday October 23, 2020 @09:53AM (#24869487)
The social elevator can take 2 generations. And that is ok. There is a lot of things to learn. It gives hope to one’s dad.

Sadly inheritance is looked down upon, and people would like every citizen to be born with the same information, and this information being delivered by public education.

Sadly, parents teach much better than teachers when it is about the little things that make a life successful. There will never be a way around this. Transmission will never be good between people who don’t care for each others, such as civil servants. Therefore we should acknowledge that, yes, some parts of success will be taught by parents, and tearing children from parents will only lose information instead of elevating everyone. We should elevate parents and teach them so that they, too, can get successful children, and make sure all kids get two parents, and as many grandparents as possible (who are very, very important for psychological stability and growth), and make sure parents can be confident in teaching their children, i.e. not criticizing them for teaching them methods to succeed which have succeeded for a millenium, like, I don’t know, marrying which is the single best predictor of success.

Sure, we can re-engineer humans without parent inheritance, tear them off and give them to childcare centers, but we already know the sad results.

I’ve once asked my Arab employee why only (foreign) Arabs applied to our job (in France) and had the skills, he very acutely noted that their parents don’t allow them to fail, whereas French-born developers were more lazy. The result is very visible here: The only decent application we have are from North Africa.

« The right parents » is not about wealth or social exclusion. It is that some parents decide to be crap parents and destroy a millenium of wisdom at their generation by not transmitting all the accumulated knowledge, generally due to some ideological dream (« my ancestors were all wrong! THIS is how you do it! I shall be free to roam! ») But the failed child is free to start again, marry, work a lot, study success, and he can give his child an excellent life, and his grandson can be CEO of a large company.

Society can’t offset crap parents. Society already does a good job at making social move possible; 86% billionaires of our generation didn’t have billionaire parents. Also, don’t believe I’m not sorry for the victims, but let’s pass the word and teach again the good tips that have worked for millenia, instead of telling everyone they can survive with a mother-and-two-step-uncles, a flat, a brother in jail and a pink dress. It is not ok to say that. We should rather tell them it will be hard and we can help them progress if they choose to live a clean life starting from now.

Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by sidlls on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:21AM (#24870408)
There are three ideas core to your comment that are, at best, controversial: marriage as a predictor of success, French-born developers are lazy, and wealth/social exclusion having no role in whether "having the right parents" applies.

Also I'd love to see a deeper analysis of your "86% of billionaires" comment. Usually what happens is we discover that "self-made" millionaires grew up in quite affluent circumstances, perhaps not with millionaire parents, but with parents who earned a sufficient income to themselves retire as millionaires. That is to say, they aren't "self-made". It isn't meaningful to compare their accumulation of wealth to the struggles of those born in less favorable circumstances.

There are no "self-made" billionaires. Or very, very few (WhatsApp founder Jan Koum is literally the only one I can think of who comes close). Every single high-profile billionaire today--Gates, Buffet, Zuckerberg, Bezos, Musk, etc.--came from a family with substantial financial means and social connections.

Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by stuntkite on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:01PM (#24874126)
I think the "86% of billionaires" thing can be attributed to wealth concentration to income gap. If you want to be a billionaire, it helps if your family had many millions. The extraction of the ultra wealthy that has happened in the last 40 years is pretty incredible. I'm unsure that there are any billionaires that started out leaving home as an emancipated minor with no job and no money an an early life of untreated trauma resulting in complex PTSD.
Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by fierarul on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:20PM (#24871729)
Now instead of atomic individuals try to think in terms of bloodlines.
Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by rurp on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:54AM (#24870821)
> 86% billionaires of our generation didn’t have billionaire parents.

How many of them had hundred-millionaire parents? The way wealth has grown for the super rich over the past few decades is staggering. Children of wealthy parents attaining far greater wealth than their parents has been the norm in America for generations now, it's not some exceptional accomplishment.

Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by inglor_cz on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:03PM (#24873390)
I don't think that multiplying your parents' wealth is only confined to the already wealthy class.

I make about ten times as much as my mother did, although we are both university educated. The difference is that I can sell my products on the Internet to a much wider audience. That was a serious multiplier which affected a lot of people and businesses, even on the lower end of the scale.

But I am very definitely not a USD-millionaire and likely won't ever be.

Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by powerslacker on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:50AM (#24870765)
I mostly agree with your sentiment, except on hiring. I've gotten several offers from French companies for Sr. Engineer roles and the problem isn't that your developers are lazy - it's that software companies in France don't pay anywhere near market wages compared to the rest of the globe. Last year I was offered the equivalent of US 70K to take on an ambitious Sr. Eng. Role. That's less than half what I'd expect in the states.
Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by 908B64B197 on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:45PM (#24873132)
> I've once asked my Arab employee why only (foreign) Arabs applied to our job (in France) and had the skills, he very acutely noted that their parents don't allow them to fail, whereas French-born developers were more lazy. The result is very visible here: The only decent application we have are from North Africa.

That's a bold statement.

French-born engineers are some of the best I've worked with, definitely not lazy by any means. But the local market in France is truly disconnected, salary-wise, when compared to the rest of the world.

If you advertise French wages on the French market, you simply won't get any of that french-born talent. They are either working remotely or already in the Bay Area!

Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by manuel_w on Saturday October 24, 2020 @01:34PM (#24880677)
> The social elevator can take 2 generations. And that is ok.

It is not. You don't choose your parents, just the same way as you don't get to choose your sex/gender, race/ethnicity or caste. If you take "equal chances for everyone" seriously, it is a primary concern for a society to allow children to prosper freely without being impeded by the misfortune or failings of their parents.

> Sadly inheritance is looked down upon

We're totally not on the same page. Not even close.

> destroy a millenium of wisdom at their generation by not transmitting all the accumulated knowledge, generally due to some ideological dream (« my ancestors were all wrong! THIS is how you do it! I shall be free to roam! »)

I think it doesn't take a millennium of wisdom to understand what's needed to raise sane, mentally healthy children. Besides, this chain of knowledge-transfer gets interrupted constantly anyway, often due to war, accidents or addictions.

> But the failed child is free to start again, marry, work a lot, study success, and he can give his child an excellent life, and his grandson can be CEO of a large company.

Why the grandson? Why not the son? (Or daughter, for what it's worth.)

Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by ck425 on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:49AM (#24870049)
My impression, and indeed my personal issue with inheritance, is financial inheritance. I have far less issues with other forms of inheritance. Sure I'm occasionally jealous of the opportunities or skills others learnt from a young age but overall I'm just glad there are more talented, thoughtful, considerate people out there. The only part that ticks me off is arrogant people who claim to have gotten far only on their own backs and who refuse to acknowledge any good fortune (what you could call non-financial inheritance) on their part. Admittedly that pisses me off more because I used to do it a lot myself.
Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by dfxm12 on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:25AM (#24870447)
My impression, and indeed my personal issue with inheritance, is financial inheritance.

According to this study[0], at least 50% of wealth persistence is accounted for by direct transfers from parents, i.e. financial inheritance, while earnings and education are only able to explain 25%.

0 - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ecoj.12535

Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by ryandrake on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:05PM (#24872155)
Education is often a financial inheritance in disguise. If dad pays for your K-12 private schooling and entire Harvard education, how is that practically different than a direct cash transfer?
Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by fierarul on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:29PM (#24872377)
Would you want to live in a society where a parent would definitely not pay for better education? What kind of people would those be!?
Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by ck425 on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:35AM (#24878029)
I'd prefer a situation where everyone automatically paid for university fees via a graduate tax and no one has the option to pay outright.
Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by fierarul on Saturday October 24, 2020 @07:35AM (#24878538)
This just moves the goalpost. Parents will pay for something that improves the odds of their children. Should a society where that just does not exist or is allowed be preferable? I think nobody wants that.
Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by ck425 on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:19PM (#24882048)
Perfectly equality isn't possible but we should make it so any child can reach the height of socio-economic success. To do that we occasionally need to tear down the advantages others have such as in this case.
Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by fierarul on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:37AM (#24884748)
What does the height of socio-economic success bring you if you can't even help in any way your immediate family?

If success means just the ability to buy stuff, the richest person gets the same iPhone, so why bother striving for more?

Perfect equality means total inhumanity and the destruction of family.

Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by ck425 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:27PM (#24888623)
Yet if everyone made supporting their family through the generations their primary goal it would lead to incredible inequality as the advantages of those born to well off family allowed them to make their kids even better off and so on, while the less well off could never catch up. We know from experience that excessive levels of inequality leads to destruction of society.
Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by fierarul on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:02PM (#24889429)
The cluelessness is just baffling. I wrote a much longer reply but there's no point in pursuing this further...
Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by ck425 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @06:48PM (#24890760)
Please do reply, I'm genuinely interested.
Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by fierarul on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:27PM (#24872358)
+1.

These concepts are hard to understand for a hyper-individualistic person that lives in an eternal present.

Re:Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-st... by jackhack on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:17AM (#24869749)
thank you for this insightful view of the importance of family and parental guidance. it adds a lot to the conversation.