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Re:A “perfect” voting system by perlgeek on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @08:23AM (#2484852)
Random numbers in election systems are an absolute no-go.

Suppose that a court rules that one district must be re-counted, and based on the result there will be a new, random candidate.

This creates incentives for going after re-countings if your political opponent has won the lottery, not because the result will be much different, but simply because you get a second chance in the lottery.

It boils down to the thought that repeatability is import for fairness. Somebody claims that your DNA is identical to the one collected from the crime scene? You can make a second test and verify the first one. You think you have been treated unfair in court? You can repeated the trial at a higher court. All the doping tests in sports are verified by repetition.

The list is nearly endless. Even if a random experiment does treat you fair, you can't known.

The second point is that randomness only creates the appearance of fairness on the large scale, single individual still get treated unfair.

Re:A “perfect” voting system by yummyfajitas on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @09:00AM (#2484976)
This creates incentives for going after re-countings if your political opponent has won the lottery, not because the result will be much different, but simply because you get a second chance in the lottery.

For a perfect example of this, see the presidential election in 2000. The vote totals in Florida were within the margin of error, making the election a coin flip with the pretense of counting [1]. Politicians behaved exactly as you describe.

[1] At the time I was in college, and had just learned stats. I advocated just flipping a coin in full view on TV and moving on. Everyone thought I was crazy.

Re:A “perfect” voting system by MartinCron on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @12:08PM (#2485853)
In the last Washington State Governor's race, we had a similar condition, where the margin of victory was well within the margin of error. It seems that in such case, the only way to determine the actual will of the people is to do a re-vote.

Unfortunately, whatever candidate was ahead a any point in time would say "it's time to just move on".

I'm afraid that too many people don't get the concept of "margin of error" and will insist on getting a count that 100% accurate (instead of merely 99% or something).

Re:A “perfect” voting system by nkurz on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @02:22PM (#2486504)
While appealingly efficient, I don't think this is sound practice. "In the margin of error" does not mean that it's a 50/50 tossup. But you're usually pretty accurate, so what am I missing?
Re:A “perfect” voting system by yummyfajitas on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @03:22PM (#2486747)
A coin flip is simple, decisive, and immune to political machinations. A proper probability estimate is not.

Further, if you truly believe in democracy, then a candidate with 49.9999% of the vote is probably nearly as good as one with 50.0001%, right? So the cost of an error is low as well.

Re:A “perfect” voting system by nkurz on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @05:35PM (#2487322)
OK, that seems reasonable as long as one is certain that it's 49.9999% rather than a loose standard of "pretty close". What you wouldn't want is to make possible for the clear loser in a 48% - 52% race to demand a coin toss. Or maybe you do: by the precepts of your argument, maybe that would be fine.

I'm uneasy with the random approach suggested by the article for fear that a truly crazy candidate might win the lottery, but I'd be good with having all the candidates above some large baseline (say, 30% of the vote) get a proportional shot at the win. I think I'd probably want it to be proportional to the counted share even if there is a margin of error, though.

Re:A “perfect” voting system by yummyfajitas on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @06:19PM (#2487451)
I'd advocate calculating the statistical margin of error [1] before the election (which might, in fact, be +/-2% if the election is small enough) and doing the coin flip if it's within that margin.

[1] Technically margin_of_error(votes_cast).

Re:A “perfect” voting system by JoachimSchipper on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @08:36AM (#2484889)
As stated elsewhere in the comments, you can make a number of people (e.g. anyone who asks[1]) commit to some number[2] (e.g. by giving out SHA1(their_number)). Then calculate a random number from that (conceptually, addition modulo number of voters; actual implementation left as an exercise to the reader).

If the vote with that number was actually cast, that is the vote that is actually used. If not, try the next one until one actually was cast. Pretty repeatable, and recounting is easier.

[1] Note that "all candidates" may not be sufficient, since it allows the candidates to collectively choose the outcome by picking their numbers such that one of their own/friends' ballots is chosen. This could be used to elect a popular Labour politician in a remote district where only the major two parties are running, in exchange for electing two unknown Tories.

[2] If you're not into crypto, put tickets containing every possible ballot number in a big barrel. Have a trusted/blindfolded guy pick tickets until he finds one that corresponds to a vote that was actually cast. There are lots of solutions, of varying degrees of cleverness.

[EDITs: added two footnotes]

Re:A “perfect” voting system by lsd5you on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @08:59AM (#2484973)
I'm not sure that this is enough as it is stated here and in the original comment. There may be a technical solution that allows it to be done in one go, but an alternative would be to do the count, have a window in which the count can be challenged and then do the draw in a pseudo random deterministic way with seeds coming from a number of sources (e.g. different candidates).
Re:A “perfect” voting system by DRMacIver on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @10:58AM (#2485458)
You know, this is a much better way of doing it.

I feel like for a complete idiot for not spotting that up front.

Re:A “perfect” voting system by perlgeek on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @08:54AM (#2484959)
This does account for the repeatability, but the point still remains that it treats individuals unfair, and that the unfairness only averages out over many districts.

How would you feel if you got 80% of the votes in your district, but the lottery (even if repeatable) picked your opponent? How would those feel who gave you your vote? I'd certainly felt cheated.

Re:A “perfect” voting system by JoachimSchipper on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @09:04AM (#2484990)
Good point. You can solve this issue by electing more than one representative from ordered (per-party) lists: the first picked vote for Labour elects Labour#1, the second Labour#2, etc. Labour#4 could still be lucky or unlucky, but Labour#1 will almost certainly be picked (assuming e.g. 50% of the vote for Labour, with probability 1 - 2^-10 = 1023/1024.)

However, I'm not sure how much of a (perceived) advantage over proportional representation this gives you.

Re:A “perfect” voting system by DRMacIver on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @08:57AM (#2484968)
How do those who currently get 40% of the vote and 10% of the seats feel? I'm guessing pretty cheated.
Re:A “perfect” voting system by sorbus on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @09:05AM (#2484994)
Replacing a broken system with an even more broken system is not an improvement.
Re:A “perfect” voting system by DRMacIver on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @09:21AM (#2485044)
I agree completely, but you've not argued convincingly for this one being a more broken system. The current one is guaranteed unfair, this one is expected-fair even if the unfairness may be geographically concentrated.
Re:A “perfect” voting system by perlgeek on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @09:50AM (#2485138)
It seems we've argued over different things. I picked up the "perfect" from the headline and came up with a counter-example. Comparing it with an obviously broken system doesn't make it any more perfect.

If you're looking for possible alternatives, I find Germany's model not too bad: two votes, one for per-district representatives and one for parties which is evaluated proportionally. Not perfect, but works out in practise.

I'd like one mode change though: instead of giving one vote per list, I'd like to allocate an arbitrary number of votes per list, but you can give at most one vote per candidate or party. That way you can vote for blocks of parties/candidates, or even vote against somebody by voting for everybody execpt that one party/candidate.

This would remove a lot of tactical debate if you're vasting your vote on candidates/parties who don't have huge chances for success.

Re:A “perfect” voting system by DRMacIver on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @10:30AM (#2485317)
> It seems we've argued over different things.

That happens with annoying regularity. I have a system for dealing with that too, but that's a different blog post. ;-)

> I picked up the "perfect" from the headline and came up with a counter-example.

Well there's a reason "perfect" is in scare quotes. If I really thought the system were perfect I'd actually be advocating it instead of going "Hey guys, here's a neat idea. I'm not really sure if I'm actually for it or not".

The meaning of perfect here was intended to be that it has a lot of the properties which many people claim are impossible to coexist and summarise under the heading "there is no perfect voting system" (it overcomes the impossibilities by being non-deterministic), whilst remaining very similar to the existing and familiar system

Re:A “perfect” voting system by JoachimSchipper on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @09:53AM (#2485153)
Can you explain why that wouldn't lead to the introduction of parties like Tories2, Tories3, ..., Tories100? One could allocate 1/#votes "points" to each party voted for, but that gets you back to strategic voting.
Re:A “perfect” voting system by leot on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @01:02PM (#2486135)
Every voter only gets one vote. Extra parties would change nothing.
Re:A “perfect” voting system by JoachimSchipper on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @03:21PM (#2486743)
That was my first idea, but the comment I'm replying to included

> This would remove a lot of tactical debate if you're vasting your vote on candidates/parties who don't have huge chances for success.

which doesn't work if you give each party 1/#number_of_parties_voted_for votes (voting for CoolGuy gives your vote on EstablishedAndNotTooBad less weight, after all.)

Re:A “perfect” voting system by swombat on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @11:23AM (#2485594)
Creating a party and running it in an election is a tad more onerous than creating a Reddit account. You can't create 100 parties just to try to game the lottery.
Re:A “perfect” voting system by arethuza on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @08:38AM (#2484895)
Those of us who live in safe seats where we don't support the locally dominant party are arguably already being treated unfairly. It wouldn't be so bad if there weren't quite so many safe seats - but given that 382 out of 650 seats fall into this category I think something should change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_seat#United_Kingdom

Re:A “perfect” voting system by DRMacIver on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @09:24AM (#2485053)
It's worth noting that this solution utterly blows the safe seats problem out of the water. This is probably my favourite feature of it.
Re:A “perfect” voting system by deadbadger on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @09:46AM (#2485124)
A related effect, of course, is that it becomes practically impossible for politicians to plan for any sort of career, or parties to make personnel plans with more than a single-parliament horizon. Even a candidate with a hefty 60% support can expect only a single term at more than even odds.

Not only would this rob the legislature of experience, it would also mean politicians towards the end of each term would be focused on securing their next job, rather than performing their current one.

Re:A “perfect” voting system by arethuza on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @09:51AM (#2485145)
Better that than the current career plan for a politician:

- Oxford PPE

- Policy researcher

- Safe seat

- Minister

- Non-exec chairman/director

Re:A “perfect” voting system by deadbadger on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @10:15AM (#2485239)
Well, possibly - but the point is that while ubiquitous safe seats are obviously detrimental, so is their elimination at all costs. The problem with safe seats isn't that popular politicians are consistently elected; it's that minority voices in those constituencies are marginalised. You can certainly address the latter by preventing the former, but it's a far from ideal way of doing so.

(Edited for ghastly sentence construction, sorry)

Re:A “perfect” voting system by arethuza on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @10:36AM (#2485347)
Och yes, I don't think I'd be quite so cavalier about my advocacy of this particular voting system if there was any chance of it actually being used.

(A bit like the one time I voted for the Scottish Socialist Party - I only did so for their entertainment value, not because they would have any likely control over policies).

Re:A “perfect” voting system by DRMacIver on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @11:01AM (#2485473)
> Not only would this rob the legislature of experience,

I'm not sure it does, or at least not drastically: It robs the legislature of individual experience, but on average there's no reason you'd expect each politician to be in for the first time. They could even rerun later.

> it would also mean politicians towards the end of each term would be focused on securing their next job, rather than performing their current one.

This is a really easy problem to solve: You give a recently ousted MP a paid vacation after their term is up.

(This works better of course if you stagger elections rather than electing everyone at once, but it's fine without)

Re:A “perfect” voting system by mike-cardwell on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @09:28AM (#2485067)
Just make it so recounts can only be done before the final random pick.
Re:A “perfect” voting system by evgenit on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @07:27PM (#2487684)
Here's a way to avoid it: Change the process. Do counting, re-counting, appeals, etc. first, until a final decision as to the correct count and valid votes is made (all appeals exhausted or no longer possible due to time elapsed). We have final decisions on all these matters in current systems. This way, you will "know" that the election was fair, since this depends on the ballots, not the candidate.

Then do the random step. The drawback is that there may be a month or two between casting votes and having the results, but I don't see why this is a big deal.

Re:A “perfect” voting system by vrotaru on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @10:33AM (#2485331)
Not that I endorse anything but a two-step procedure can enforce a kind of repeatibility.

  * Step 1. A thousand votes are selected randomly. And counted and the counts are made public
  * Step 2. The winner vote is selected at random in public procedure.
Now step 1 can be repeated at a contestant request, but if the counts are roughly the same, step 2 doesn't happen. Actually if the counts are too different, a revote may be in order
Re:A “perfect” voting system by dabeeeenster on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @08:35AM (#2484888)
How can you have a recount of a single vote?
Re:A “perfect” voting system by JoachimSchipper on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @08:40AM (#2484908)
Imagine that some civil servants hates, for instance, the BNP. If the proposed system is implemented carelessly, (s)he may elect to "lose" the randomly-chosen vote that would otherwise put a BNP politician in power, and hope that the "next" vote will be for a party more to his/her liking.

"Recounts" are nonsense, but I can imagine that an audit might help against the above scenario.

Re:A “perfect” voting system by dabeeeenster on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @08:48AM (#2484936)
Just make the drawing out of the single vote a public event.
Re:A “perfect” voting system by DRMacIver on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @09:22AM (#2485049)
I sketched a process for how this could work in a blog comment: http://www.drmaciver.com/2011/04/a-perfect-voting-system/com...
Re:A “perfect” voting system by joe_the_user on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @04:02PM (#2486920)
Obviously there couldn't be recounts but since there wouldn't be "outlier" elections (where someone would win by an unusual five votes), that wouldn't matter as much. (Of course, every election could be an outlier so this might not make it pleasing)

The result clearly wouldn't be fair in our normal sense of fairness and that would indeed be a huge roadblock.

The only appeal would come if a given system looks both unfair, unprincipled and corrupt. Then "just unfair" might be better.

Re:A “perfect” voting system by BoppreH on Tuesday April 26, 2011 @04:11PM (#2486950)
Electronic voting?