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Re:Hannah Arendt: Reflections on Violence (1969) by motohagiography on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @11:14AM (#24838279)
My assertion afterwards was my next order conclusion, and I agree, not specifically what she asserted.

I'm going to revisit it, as the idea of power being an artifact of free consensus of belief in a group, and not intrinsic to violence is hard to reconcile with some of her earlier observations, and indeed, physics.

Re:Hannah Arendt: Reflections on Violence (1969) by tumblerz on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @12:51PM (#24839610)
I need to reread her, as well, as I cannot make my memory of her writing work entirely with this power-as-consensus claim.

Your "two levers," I think are interesting in that coercion is, in my experience of popular political argumentation, allowed to sneak in via a societal focus on physical violence ("force" in your terms?).

Example: some leftists claim property violence is not violence because, paraphrasing, is does not harm the human body. Leaving aside the validity of this claim, the coerciveness of the act remains but is somehow able to pass the smell test in certain circles. I think this depends on one's perception of conflict, but that is a long discussion.

Meanwhile, as you imply above, deception is clearly coercion, but much more effective in the longrun than physical violence. Deception generates belief congruent with the deceivers' attempt to acquire (more) power, which, once established, requires less maintenance than fear.

Finally, there is nothing in the description of power as cited above that is necessarily free from coercion. If power simply means both individual and collective agency, then capturing agency via coercion is still an acquisition of power.

Re:Hannah Arendt: Reflections on Violence (1969) by quacked on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @12:14PM (#24839103)
I am inclined to agree with the impossibility of reconciling a definition of "power" that does not involve violence and non-consensual control; a lot of modern writers and thinkers will use their own definition of "power" in order to frame it based on collectivism, as if "power" only exists if it's conceded voluntarily by other people, but I think this is wishful thinking.

Oddly enough, they want to specifically use the word "power" because of its existing reputation, i.e. its connotations with acts of non-consensual control. They may say something like "real power does not stem from violence, real power comes from a group and does not exist without group coherence." However, the only reason they're focusing on the word "power" is because they know what it implies and are using its reputation as a concept in order to lend credibility to their own ideas, which themselves usually contradict the agreed-upon meaning of the "power".

To be clear, this may not strictly apply to Hannah Arendt, but I see other people playing with the word "power" so frequently that I thought it was relevant to mention.

Re:Hannah Arendt: Reflections on Violence (1969) by leftyted on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @01:17PM (#24839961)
The bones of her argument are not semantic. She's saying that there is a sharp difference between consensual power and non-consensual power. The fact that she uses the word "power" to refer to the former and "violence" to refer to the latter is not that interesting. The distinction itself is what's interesting.

I agree with her that there's a distinction to be made between, on one hand, a group of people agreeing to follow a set of rules to accomplish some goal and, on the other, a slave driver forcing his slaves to accomplish that goal.

The idea that there is no real distinction here, that all power is based on coercion, was popular when she wrote the linked essay and it's popular today (as evidenced by the replies here). I used to think that way but I no longer do and, I have to say, it's quite a relief.

Re:Hannah Arendt: Reflections on Violence (1969) by phizy on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @01:38PM (#24840201)
It seems pretty clear to me that the ideal (for those who don't want to be authoritarians) has always been to offer as many opportunities to evade violence as possible. If someone is violating the law, ask them to correct it. If they fail there, help them correct it. If they fail there (or insist), penalize them with inconveniences or fees. If they still fail, 'force' starts to enter the picture, but it should always come with a consideration of need. A person should have to burn through a lot of their credibility and good will before society starts forcing their hand.