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Re:Covid: Remdesivir 'has little or no effect' on survival, ... by gregwebs on Friday October 16, 2020 @12:02PM (#24802120)
The study you links to uses death or heart failure as an endpoint. If there had been lower mortality or ICU admission halting the trial early would make sense. With the only improvement being quicker recovery the value proposition of the treatment isn't that great. From a practical standpoint remdesivir is expensive and had supply issues so halting the trial early doesn't mean every American is going to start getting treated with it.

I don't think the science is solid when a trial can pick from 2nd-tier endpoints and stop the trial once an improvement is found. It is quite possible that if the trial had gone on longer the one positive effect would be reduced or even go away entirely or that we would see a negative effect in a more important endpoint.

Re:Covid: Remdesivir 'has little or no effect' on survival, ... by wang_li on Friday October 16, 2020 @02:30PM (#24803616)
In urgent circumstances where the demand for hospital services are high, a twenty percent improvement in recovery times is the same as increased capacity.
Re:Covid: Remdesivir 'has little or no effect' on survival, ... by mlyle on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:21PM (#24804081)
Nit: It's not quite the same. If need for hospitalization is growing quickly, cycling out people 20% quicker might not affect overload dramatically.

Steady-state, sure, you can treat 25% more.

Re:Covid: Remdesivir 'has little or no effect' on survival, ... by mlyle on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:19PM (#24804065)
> With the only improvement being quicker recovery the value proposition of the treatment isn't that great.

It's $3k a patient. The five days difference in hospital stay that was implied costs a lot more than that, even if there is no mortality/morbidity benefit, and that's ignoring that we were worried about running out of hospital capacity.

Re:Covid: Remdesivir 'has little or no effect' on survival, ... by ajsnigrutin on Friday October 16, 2020 @08:26PM (#24806385)
> five days difference in hospital stay that was implied costs a lot more than that

In case of COVID, it's not just a cost issue, but also clearing the bed as soon as possible, to put a new patient in.

10% less hospital stay, means 10% more patients able to get help.

Re:Covid: Remdesivir 'has little or no effect' on survival, ... by mlyle on Friday October 16, 2020 @09:24PM (#24806723)
Read the whole comment. I said:

> ... and that's ignoring that we were worried about running out of hospital capacity.

Anyways--

> 10% less hospital stay, means 10% more patients able to get help.

This isn't true. It's only true at steady state, but if there's an exponential process you get a smaller benefit. (E.g. take the ridiculous case that 100% of patients show up on one day-- obviously a shorter stay doesn't improve the number you treat in that case).

Re:Covid: Remdesivir 'has little or no effect' on survival, ... by ajsnigrutin on Sunday October 18, 2020 @11:49PM (#24823167)
We're talking about a real virus here, not a theoretical experiment in math. Currently, most of europe is having an exponential growth of new cases, so even if 100% of current cases show up on day one, we'll have more new cases tomorrow, and any way to speed up the process will save lives.
Re:Covid: Remdesivir 'has little or no effect' on survival, ... by mlyle on Monday October 19, 2020 @02:11AM (#24823715)
Yes, shortening the process saves lives. I don't disagree with that.

It's just worth noting that you get significantly less than a 1/.9 benefit in capacity when you shorten hospitalization times by 10%. It's a benefit, but it's only this ideal value when things are perfectly steady state. So sorry for the pedantry, but "10% less hospital stay, means 10% more patients able to get help."--- it's not the predicted 11% or even 10%.

Re:Covid: Remdesivir 'has little or no effect' on survival, ... by gregwebs on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:59PM (#24804448)
That assumes the effect in the study is real and that there is no increase in mortality or ICU admission: unfortunately stopping the trial early casts doubt on that.
Re:Covid: Remdesivir 'has little or no effect' on survival, ... by mlyle on Friday October 16, 2020 @04:24PM (#24804681)
I'm speaking just to the specific point I replied to. That's why I couched it with "that was implied".

Secondary endpoints, decisions about when to end trials, etc, are all fraught with peril.

It's worth noting that neither SIMPLE nor the ACTT-1 Remdesivir studies moved from a mortality to a non-mortality endpoint. SIMPLE did have an endpoint change before any data was available, but it was a relatively minor, innocuous thing.

> The primary efficacy end point was clinical status assessed on day 14 on a 7-point ordinal scale consisting of the following categories: 1, death; 2, hospitalized, receiving invasive mechanical ventilation or ECMO; 3, hospitalized, receiving noninvasive ventilation or high-flow oxygen devices; 4, hospitalized, requiring low-flow supplemental oxygen; 5, hospitalized, not requiring supplemental oxygen but receiving ongoing medical care (related or not related to Covid-19); 6, hospitalized, requiring neither supplemental oxygen nor ongoing medical care (other than that specified in the protocol for remdesivir administration); and 7, not hospitalized (see Table S1 in the Supplementary Appendix, available at NEJM.org).

Re:Covid: Remdesivir 'has little or no effect' on survival, ... by Florin_Andrei on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:13PM (#24804012)
The fact remains that it is standard procedure to halt trials early when promising results appear, and people are dying waiting for a drug. This is not something that's controversial, and this is exactly what happened with the previous Remdesivir study.

Of course it's disappointing to see it may not be as effective as we previously thought. And of course analysis may yet reveal issues with either one or the other or both studies. That's how science works - facts, not heartfelt desires.

Re:Covid: Remdesivir 'has little or no effect' on survival, ... by gregwebs on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:55PM (#24804415)
Nobody is dying. The only endpoint that improved was recovery days.
Re:Covid: Remdesivir 'has little or no effect' on survival, ... by Florin_Andrei on Friday October 16, 2020 @04:30PM (#24804735)
> Nobody is dying.

Perhaps we are talking about different things? I was addressing the current COVID-19 pandemic.