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Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by AlchemistCamp on Thursday October 15, 2020 @05:38AM (#24786672)
Completely false. The WHO claimed there was no evidence of human to human transmission after doctors in Wuhan were already getting sick, failed to share warnings from Taiwanese researchers with the rest of the world, argued against travel restrictions from China and also claimed mask use wasn't helpful.

They did a horrible job that has cost many, many lives. I've been in Taiwan and was gritting my teeth while diffing what they were saying vs local reporting from December through March.

I'm not sure what one would expect from an organization that voted in a director general with this track record: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/13/health/candidate-who-dire...

Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by nl on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:16AM (#24787293)
China and WHO confirmed human to human transmission on Jan 20, before any doctors died and before China closed Wuhan province. Anyone who says or implies otherwise are lying or misinformed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/20/coronavirus-sp...

Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by nomdep on Thursday October 15, 2020 @08:40AM (#24787951)
And they were denying it a week earlier: https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152
Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by nl on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:12AM (#24789416)
Their actual message is exactly what you should want and expect from a science based organisation:

Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #ChinaπŸ‡¨πŸ‡³.

There is nothing false or misleading, and they updated the public as new information came to light.

I can't emphasis enough how correct this behaviour is for a scientific organisation.

And for the sceptics who will claim China was covering something up: why didn't they shut down Wuhan until 23 Jan?

Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by AlchemistCamp on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:24AM (#24789547)
The Taiwanese CDC shared evidence in December that strongly suggested human-to-human transmission[1]. The WHO chose not to share this communication and went further by publishing the above tweet which suggested the exact opposite.

Their co-lead on COVID-19 even went so far as to hang up on a journalist[2] who asked about Taiwan.

If this is your idea of "correct behaviour" for a scientific org, I cringe to imagine your vision of a poorly run one.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov.tw/En/Bulletin/Detail/PAD-lbwDHeN_bLa-vi....

[2] https://youtu.be/fASh2_RzMuE

Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by nl on Thursday October 15, 2020 @12:50PM (#24790723)
I'm not defending WHOs treatment of Taiwan. I think that incident was atrocious.

Your link says (about the Dec 31 email): "Public health professionals could discern from this wording that there was a real possibility of human-to-human transmission of the disease. However, because at the time there were as yet no cases of the disease in Taiwan, we could not state directly and conclusively that there had been human-to-human transmission."

That's no different to what China or the WHO were saying in this timeframe. The constant "no confirmed human transmission" were because everyone was watching for it.

Again, there is no evidence China hid anything here, and Taiwan doesn't say anything different.

Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by AlchemistCamp on Thursday October 15, 2020 @01:30PM (#24791235)
I apologize if this is presumptuous of me, but I get the impression that you don't live here, haven't followed this topic in much detail and probably haven't read anything at all in local media from that time frame.

Here's more background:

Dr. Li Wenliang's email warning colleagues about the outbreak was sent on December 30th. Multiple Taiwanese doctors were working in Wuhan at that time. Taiwan's very early and very small outbreak was from people evacuated from Wuhan. The CDC warnings weren't about what was seen in the Covid positive evacuees in Taiwan. The warnings were based on direct experience in Wuhan and they did suggest human-to-human transmission.

There was no hard proof, but there was a great deal of circumstantial evidence. Yes, it's possible Taiwan's CDC was overly suspicious due to memories of how SARS was covered up in 2003. However, given the way epidemics spread, the wiser course is to take circumstantial evidence of transmission very seriously.

Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by nl on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:47PM (#24795191)
There was no hard proof, but there was a great deal of circumstantial evidence. Yes, it's possible Taiwan's CDC was overly suspicious due to memories of how SARS was covered up in 2003. However, given the way epidemics spread, the wiser course is to take circumstantial evidence of transmission very seriously.

I agree with this entirely. But I don't think there is any evidence that the WHO - or China - thought otherwise.

I'd note that the WHO bulletins from both Jan 5[1] and Jan 12[2] mentioned "Based on the preliminary information from the Chinese investigation team, no evidence of significant human-to-human transmission and no health care worker infections have been reported." (Jan 12, Jan 5 was similar).

Now this turned out to be wrong, but that doesn't indicate a cover-up. As your link from Taiwan said, no one definitively knew.

I'm very aware of the messages (not emails) shared by the doctor. I know he was forced to retract them by the regional government, and later exonerated by the central government. I think the dates here are important - as you mentioned it was Dec 30 he sent them, and by Jan 20 the central government had taken over. I do think the Wuhan regional government did try to minimise news of the outbreak, and I think criticism of that is fair - but needs to be tempered by acknowledgement that the central government acted relatively quickly and didn't try to hide things.

I think it's likely that external pressure from Taiwan, Japan, Korea and elsewhere made it clear to the central government that they needed to intervene.

[1] https://www.who.int/csr/don/05-january-2020-pneumonia-of-unk...

[2] https://www.who.int/csr/don/12-january-2020-novel-coronaviru...

Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by hef19898 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @01:48PM (#24791463)
I hope we can agree to argue about spilled milk doesn't help anyone. Especially when this spilled milk is used now to basically discredit very relevant organizations in the midst of a pandemic. But maybe you can share some recent fuck ups from the side of the WHO, real fuck ups and not opinions that changed over time as they learned more and more about COVID-19.
Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by AlchemistCamp on Thursday October 15, 2020 @02:58PM (#24792405)
Refusing to deal with Taiwan's CDC in a reasonable manner is a massive and continuing fuck up.

The WHO is a politically captured organization lead by a man who covered up three separate cholera outbreaks in his own country. I have little respect for or interest in them.

Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by hef19898 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @09:16AM (#24788279)
And last year in January they didn't even talk about it. Why would we listen anyway? I hope that's not your point.
Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by nl on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:14AM (#24789439)
Do you mean in January 2020?

They were talking about it a lot then: they had daily situation reports on the WHO website. I know because I was reading them!

Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by hef19898 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:28AM (#24789606)
No January 2019. As a reply to the WHO revising their opinion on human-to-human transmission commment above. I read the situation reports a lot as well, I guess I'll start doing so again.
Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by nl on Thursday October 15, 2020 @12:51PM (#24790741)
There was no Covid in Jan 2019(??) I have no idea what you are arguing.
Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by hef19898 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @01:40PM (#24791370)
Regarding the GP, attacking the WHO for changing their minds regarding human to human transmission as he found a statement dating before the one you shared. Doing that would also allow you to attack the WHO for not talking about COVID-19 before it struck, same logic and just as wrong.
Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by nl on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:40PM (#24795104)
Oh, so you are agreeing with me?

Ok then!

Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by hef19898 on Friday October 16, 2020 @05:46AM (#24799194)
Oh, I totally agree with you! Sometimes I just can help my sarcasm...
Re:YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation by nomdep on Thursday October 15, 2020 @03:16PM (#24792627)
I forgot that anything directly or indirectly critical to China is quickly downvoted here.