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Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @05:37AM (#24786665)
Freedom of speech should be a civil right and I hope that’s the result of this. No entity should be allowed to censor speech.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by invalidusernam3 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @05:51AM (#24786745)
So hacker news shouldn't be allowed to remove spam comments?
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:10AM (#24786845)
hacker news shouldn’t be allowed to censor legitimate information or dissenting political opinions, which is what is covered by the 1st amendment. It doesn’t mean you can literally say whatever you want, e.g. flood sites with spam.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by lozaning on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:51AM (#24787086)
Who gets to be the arbiter of "legitimate"?
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:56AM (#24787122)
Judges do when a lawsuit happens under a civil rights violation case.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by amanaplanacanal on Thursday October 15, 2020 @09:27AM (#24788397)
Judges, who are government employees, would get to determine what speech is legitimate and what is not? No thanks, I’ll take the current system.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @10:55AM (#24789243)
That’s literally how all civil rights are enforced.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by amanaplanacanal on Thursday October 15, 2020 @12:15PM (#24790246)
Judges can only enforce laws passed by Congress. “Congress shall make no law” seems like a much better plan to me.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @01:47PM (#24791457)
Judges do not enforce laws, they apply laws to specific situations, otherwise known as interpreting the law.

“Congress shall make no law” is the text of the first amendment, which is in regard to limiting free expression, not expanding it.

Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by amanaplanacanal on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:27PM (#24794942)
Wouldn’t Congress have to make a law for judges to step in here, though? I’m not sure what you are suggesting, exactly.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:05PM (#24797035)
No. Congress makes a law that declares the right to free speech to be a civil right. Judges would naturally step in when there is a contested violation of that right, as they currently do in all civil rights disputes .
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by UncleMeat on Thursday October 15, 2020 @09:28AM (#24788400)
So HN needs a judge to remove spam?
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:01AM (#24789300)
No. HN would be able to remove spam freely. A judge is only involved if the spammer wants to waste money on a lawsuit where they are likely to lose
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by Kiro on Thursday October 15, 2020 @09:11AM (#24788215)
What is being amended? Use terms that people understand, please. This is an international forum.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:10AM (#24789393)
Hacker news operates in the US and if the 1st amendment were made a civil right, it would have to obey that law.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by Raptor22 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @05:56AM (#24786774)
I agree with you in principle, however in practice this has been hijacked to spread misinformation with potentially deadly results. This is a very nuanced issue IMO and the answers are not trivial.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:15AM (#24786885)
The answer is trivial if you believe in the protection of civil rights.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by Raptor22 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @04:35PM (#24793565)
I believe in the protection of civil rights, but I also believe in the devastating effects of misinformation. We need to find a way to protect against the latter while affecting very little the former, but we're just not there yet.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Friday October 16, 2020 @03:19AM (#24798407)
What devastating effects of misinformation are you referring to? I see no devastating effects of misinformation at all. Your negative worldview is not a reason to allow the civil rights of others to be violated.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by codyswann on Thursday October 15, 2020 @05:52AM (#24786751)
So you can say whatever you want at your job without any repercussion from your employer? Yikes.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:12AM (#24786864)
If you’re being sincere that’s a false characterization of the freedom of speech. It is not the ability to say whatever you want but it is the ability to share legitimate information or dissenting opinions, the former being the topic of OP. Employers should not be able to deny people their rights.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by ntsplnkv2 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @09:04AM (#24788150)
Employers fire people all the time for comments on social media and they are well within their right to do so. Any suggestion otherwise is a violation of the company's freedom of speech.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:05AM (#24789347)
Did you read about how this thread is about making freedom of speech a civil right where its protections extend to private entities?
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by ntsplnkv2 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:19AM (#24789488)
Of course, that's the topic - perhaps you should read my post, and realize the contradiction your idea creates that I clearly pointed out for you.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:42AM (#24789772)
It’s not a contradiction unless you think employers should be able to violate the civil rights of their employees.

Do you think making it illegal for employers to discriminate against their employees based on their race is a violation of the employers’ rights?

Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by ntsplnkv2 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @02:29PM (#24792010)
Employers have just the same rights. Take the case of an owner with one employee.

If I own my own business and I'm the only employee, let's say a plumbing business. For years I did my own work, own accounting, own taxes, etc. I decide to add an apprentice who I hire in full time. This apprentice starts evangelizing his political views while on jobs. This turns off customers and doesn't agree with my political views. I don't want my employee to do this. It is not my point of view and it's affecting business. Now in your world, I can't fire this person, or tell him to stop. But by not being allowed to fire this person, and allowing his speech to continue via my company, the government is forcing me and my property to endorse his speech. Why stop there? Why can't I put a Trump sign in my neighbors yard?

Now we're in a contradiction. Who's right to speech matters more in a private setting? Typically the owner of said private setting. By and large, this is true. Does this lead to sticky situations where people are profiled racially? Yes. But I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

> Do you think making it illegal for employers to discriminate against their employees based on their race is a violation of the employers’ rights?

Do you think it making it legal for an employee to bark racist words towards their minority colleagues all day at work is a good idea? Because under your free speech rule, that would be OK. Oh look, another contradiction. In any case, we have laws for these scenarios that are largely constitutional because the constitution largely ignores these private settings, thus it is up to us to legislate, hence we have laws on discrimination.

Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @02:38PM (#24792142)
There is no contradiction except in the black and white strawman that you’re projecting. As all debates around civil rights, there is a reasonable middle ground that maximizes everyone’s freedom while minimizing the amount of restriction.

In “my world” where free speech is protected as a civil right, you would be allowed to fire an employee who is using his position to evangelize instead of doing his job. In my world the employee is simply protected from being fired for having a dissenting view when sharing their view in a forum where that would be otherwise appropriate. Or people cannot be censored on social networks for sharing inconvenient truths to any political side.

We already have laws that restrict discrimination in the workplace, setting it up so that protecting free speech in the work place necessarily contradicts that is either intentionally dishonest or an unintentional demonstration of lack of imagination.

The reality is that it’s possible and moral to legislate the protection of free speech civil rights without harmfully violating the employers’ rights. You just don’t believe in free speech civil rights.

Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by 542354234235 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @10:11AM (#24788832)
> Employers should not be able to deny people their rights

Freedom of speech means the government will not target you for expressing your opinion. It does not mean that your employer has to tolerate it. If I write an op-ed about how my employer makes a shoddy product, they are well within their legal rights to conduct their business how they see fit and terminate their business relationship with me. You seem to confuse freedom of speech with freedom from consequence of speech.

Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:03AM (#24789317)
Yes this is why my OP is about making freedom of speech a civil right and extending its protections to private entities. Similar to how anti-discrimination protections are currently extended to private entities.
Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by 542354234235 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @12:28PM (#24790423)
> making freedom of speech a civil right

Free speech is already a civil right. You are not talking about free speech. So employees would not be allowed to quit working for an employer because that employer used their free speech to support a position they were morally opposed to? Anti-discrimination laws almost exclusively protect who you are i.e. race, gender, nationality, religion, physical ability. Free speech is about the viewpoints you choose to express and the actions you choose to take. You have the freedom to speak and act how you choose, but I also have the freedom hear you and choose how I interact with you or choose not to at all. You can’t legislate that person A is free to speak but person B is not free to react to that speech, as you are restricting the basic freedom of person B. Of course, when B uses their speech and A is not free to react, you are now restricting everyone’s freedom and everyone loses their freedom. As opposed to not legislating the speech or the reactions to that speech and individuals have the freedom to make their own choices and live with the consequences of those choices.

Re:Facebook, Twitter block the NY Post from posting by CyberRabbi on Thursday October 15, 2020 @01:48PM (#24791468)
Free speech is factually not a civil right in the US currently. Do you know what the definition of a civil right is?