News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by dragonwriter on Monday October 12, 2020 @04:29AM (#24752479)
> Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime.

While its not perfectly divided this way, it's worth noting that the US has different things called “jails” and “prisons” and that the former are mostly for pretrial and short-sentence incarceration and mostly run by local governments, while the latter in state systems are almost exclusively for post-conviction felony sentences, while they are used for all purposes in the federal system.

This is important, because while the number of pre-trial confinements in the US is way too high, if you fail to understand that distinction statistics about the proportion of jail inmates that are on pre-trial confinement may be grossly misleading.

There is a graphic overview of the whole detention picture here: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html

Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by jstanley on Monday October 12, 2020 @05:16AM (#24752692)
OK, but you can't really argue your way around:

> This amounts to nearly half a million people sitting in jail each day, despite being presumed innocent under the law

Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by throwaway0a5e on Monday October 12, 2020 @07:47AM (#24753441)
> This amounts to nearly half a million people sitting in jail each day, despite being presumed innocent under the law

Ok, but it's not the same half million on any given day. A huge number of those people got picked up the night before and will be out (on bail or otherwise) by the end of the business day. Incarcerating people is expensive. Even if getting them out doesn't involve the state getting an interest free loan the state still has an incentive to get them out.

In functional jurisdictions the turnover is high. I know that there's a litany of exceptions for the authoritarian (and therefore more inclined to lock people up for no good reason) and well moneyed (and have the money to do it) jurisdictions in the Boston-DC corridor (and please nobody construe this as me giving the Southeast or west coast a pass, they suck too but do it differently) but the underlying problem there is societal. If you reform bail the well moneyed authoritarian jurisdictions are still well moneyed and still authoritarians and will simply spend that money using the system to screw people some other way.

Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by ColoradoDev on Monday October 12, 2020 @08:25AM (#24753692)
>A huge number of those people got picked up the night before and will be out (on bail or otherwise) by the end of the business day.

Interesting. I'm curious to see the statistics you are pulling. Do you mind sharing a link?

Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by kwhitefoot on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:01AM (#24755046)
That's more than one in a thousand people. Is that reasonable? It seems rather high to me. Is it a consequence of the judicial system or of high levels of crime, or what?

And how does it compare with other countries? Can anyone provide statistics and plausible explanations?

Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by ldoughty on Monday October 12, 2020 @08:58AM (#24753920)
If you take a drunk driver to jail to wait out the night.. or a teen caught in a liquor store with a broken window at 3am... Or you pick up a domestic abuser and take them to jail to get them away from their victim while collecting evidence and statements...

Those are all people that are presumed innocent under the law... They may spend only minutes or hours in jail as police gather and verify their information... Run their prints to see if their given name is false and their a criminal with a warrant for their arrest... Etc....

So the commenter saying the stats might be misleading is very accurate ... Jails have revolving doors, and that's probably a good thing. It would also be a good thing to eliminate cash bond, without changing jails otherwise -- because jails serve a very real and practical benefit to society for less-than-a-day holding off individuals while their identity is verified and their information/case is reviewed to determine if a bond of any kind will be even offered.

Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by jstanley on Monday October 12, 2020 @09:14AM (#24754045)
Well we are given the statistic that half a million people are in jail each day. The US population is about 330 million, so if what you are saying is accurate, the mean person can expect to go to jail once every 660 days.

Does that sound reasonable?

If that seems like an unreasonable proportion of your time to be spending in jail, it's probably also an unreasonable proportion of the population to be keeping in jail.

Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by nobody9999 on Monday October 12, 2020 @09:33AM (#24754167)
>Those are all people that are presumed innocent under the law... They may spend only minutes or hours in jail as police gather and verify their information... Run their prints to see if their given name is false and their a criminal with a warrant for their arrest... Etc....

They may. But we're talking about those in pretrial detention, which excludes all the folks you're talking about. And the average length of pretrial detention is 50-200 days.

Would you be able to keep your job, pay your rent/mortgage and care for your children if you were sitting in jail for 3-6 months?

Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by abstractbarista on Monday October 12, 2020 @08:26AM (#24753695)
I'm rather OK with that.
Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by jstanley on Monday October 12, 2020 @08:55AM (#24753897)
Why?
Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by grumple on Monday October 12, 2020 @07:17AM (#24753277)
I only skimmed that page you linked, because I was looking for the bit that mentions that people can spend years in jail awaiting trial. We’ve had more than a few stories of this happening at Rikers island, only for charges to be dropped altogether.

Cash bail and pretrial jail time exist to force quick plea bargains and criminal records on poor people. There’s not really justification for it. If you aren’t suspected of a serious violent crime or other crimes against people (rather than property), you shouldn’t be in jail.

Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by koolba on Monday October 12, 2020 @08:50AM (#24753849)
> Cash bail and pretrial jail time exist to force quick plea bargains and criminal records on poor people. There’s not really justification for it. If you aren’t suspected of a serious violent crime or other crimes against people (rather than property), you shouldn’t be in jail.

This sounds fine in theory but in practice it leads to repeated infractions just shy of the incarceration limit.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-prop-47-shoplifting-th...

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-subway-men...

Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by dragonwriter on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:16AM (#24755231)
Neither of your sources (even if they were systematic rather than essentially anecdotal) identify anything like the cause you've posited (one is a post hoc ergo propter hoc with a change in post-conviction punishment, the other links no cause or even preceding change, neither indicates anything relating to pre-trial detention policy even viewed in the most favorable light.)
Re:Abolish the Cash Bail System by mywacaday on Monday October 12, 2020 @05:35AM (#24752782)
Jail or prison, either way you have list your liberty.