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Re:Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011) by kmeisthax on Friday October 09, 2020 @10:52AM (#24730449)
>Why not the Middle East?

Well, when your region of the world has been torn asunder by everything, including colonial powers, fascist reactionaries and nationalists, liberal market economies, and international communism; the only remaining cultural artifact that you can call your own is religion. If you want to unify the Middle East, you have to do so under the guise of religion, and in practice that means conservative religious extremism. Iran is sort of a microcosm of this: they deliberately adopted theocracy as any form of secular government or economy was viewed as surrender to one's oppressors.

The only problem is that there's at least three dominant forms of religion in the area to unify under: Sunni and Shiite Islam, and Zionist-compatible Judaism. This has more or less created a local cold war between Sunni theocracies (e.g. Saudi Arabia), Shiite theocracies (e.g. Iran and half of Iraq), and Israel. These hostilities are often fought with insurgencies, which means lots of violence in the border areas between the three religions. This is not a great place to live.

Immigration law is quite complicated and fraught. Every country has a mostly but not entirely irrational fear of demographic shifts (see Texas and Israel), and so they heavily restrict who can enter their country. However, the demands of capitalism mean that most countries have to provide a practical immigration path for college-educated individuals such as scientists. Immigration for the working class is generally disallowed or heavily restricted as a form of labor market protectionism, which means there is vast disparities in who is and isn't allowed to leave a country.

This creates an interesting problem: it is very difficult for these countries to convince educated scientists to remain in their country. Scientists generally don't get along with theocrats all that well to begin with. However, we've also chosen the immigration policy that is most likely to select for (relatively) liberal emigrants and filter out more conservative ones. So there's a vicious cycle: it's easier for scientists to leave the Middle East, which makes the region more conservative, which makes more scientists want to leave.

Re:Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011) by hhas01 on Saturday October 10, 2020 @04:57AM (#24737604)
“Iran is sort of a microcosm of this: they deliberately adopted theocracy as any form of secular government or economy was viewed as surrender to one's oppressors.”

Iran had a secular, democratic government. It was overthrown by the UK and US who installed a brutal dictatorship just so they could get their oil cheap, so you can kind of see how Iranians might conclude that “democracy” isn’t worth the paper it’s written on and the only defense is a bigger bunch of bastards than the other guys’.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

Re:Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011) by travisoneill1 on Friday October 09, 2020 @11:15AM (#24730659)
The vast majority of emigrants from the middle east are poor migrants to Europe, not educated scientists.
Re:Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011) by tuvan on Friday October 09, 2020 @12:21PM (#24731442)
That's only because the vast majority of middle eastern people are poor. Parent comment is correct saying that it is much easier for educated scientists to leave, and they do leave, which is a self feeding loop draining everyone capable of positive change out of the region.
Re:Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011) by leetcrew on Friday October 09, 2020 @12:20PM (#24731438)
I would guess there are a lot more poor people than scientists in most countries. are emigrants disproportionately poor, uneducated people?
Re:Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011) by everybodyknows on Friday October 09, 2020 @12:26PM (#24731513)
@kmeisthax did not claim otherwise; your respective claims are not in tension.

However, the "We" is ambiguous: US or EU? Or Canada, Australia, Japan?

Re:Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011) by kmeisthax on Friday October 09, 2020 @01:02PM (#24731943)
In recent history we've had the Syrian refugee crisis which resulted in a large number of likely political refugees migrating to EU countries. This is still an abberation: most EU countries generally have immigration systems that favor well-trained economic migrants, and the flow of migrants from the Middle East to Europe will regress to the mean (if it hasn't already). Japan used to explicitly refuse work visas without a college degree, and has generally been very difficult to immimigrate to, but has softened on this because they've ran out of workers. Canada and Australia are similar to the EU in that they favor educated migrants on work visas, though their points system also explicitly favors English and French speaking migrants that can pass strict language tests.

The US is also an abberation: our immigration system favors family reunification ("chain migration") from a diverse pool of emigrant countries over economic migration. Most other countries heavily restrict immigration on the basis of family reunification. Diversity of origins is enforced through both per-country quotas as well as literally handing out green cards to people from countries that don't send us lots of migrants ("the visa lottery"). However, the primary effect of this is to make it very difficult for Mexicans to immigrate. I don't have detailed enough statistics to know if most Middle East emigrants immigrate to the US on work visas or through family sponsorship, but I would suspect that all of the above factors are a wash, as most of our immigrants come from Europe or the Americas.

Re:Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011) by resiros on Friday October 09, 2020 @03:16PM (#24733379)
That's not the point. The point is that the majority of educated scientists in the middle east emigrated to Europe!