Then they can follow the same rule as for overtaking: if in doubt, don't. It's not complicated. There is no way you are tired enough to be actually falling asleep without realising you're far too tired to be driving safely. It's not as if it's a close thing where one minute you're alert and driving responsibly and the next minute you're out. Anyone who can't make that determination reliably is demonstrably unfit to be in charge of a vehicle and should hand in their licence.
The kinds of medical conditions that do make sudden dozing off normal for a few unfortunate people are grounds for refusing to issue a driving licence to those people in most places, for reasons that should hopefully be obvious.
Monotonous activities frequently make people drowsy. This is not some medical condition, it is a common occurrence. Driving is often an acutely monotonous activity.
I know a huge number of people that get drowsy while reading books. Do they all suffer from the same "condition"?
The point is that it isn't "just like that", but not everyone has experience with passing out from being tired while trying to continue doing something they were actively trying trying to concentrate on.
> If you're going to do something like that, you need to plan the journey sensibly, take plenty of breaks, make sure you got extra rest before you leave. Don't they teach this sort of stuff in basic driver training where you are?
Obviously not well enough, or I had forgotten some of it in the almost decade between taking the classes and actually experiencing it for the first time. And to be clear, I thought I was being cautious, it was definitely not my first time making that trip, and I didn't think I was so tired I would lose consciousness, and yet one second I was fine, and the next second (to my consciousness) I noticed I was halfway across the center divider. I didn't feel any more tired than I had on a a prior trip, yet, the conclusion is obvious, that level of tiredness feeling might lead to that outcome, therefore it was no longer acceptable.
So, here's the thing, prior to that situation I thought I was being responsible, and had years of experience to go by that indicated I could drive in that state. All it takes is once occurrence to let you know that what you thought as fine was not.
What exactly was a I supposed to obviously know from that beforehand? It's nice if you've always been able to know the correct level to stop at, or perhaps you stop far earlier than strictly needed, which is fine. You would never know if you stopped with plenty of attentive time left you could drive, but better safe than sorry.
All I see this meaning is that different people have different thresholds for this, and all I was saying originally is that I wish there was a way for us to impart this experience better during driver training, so people knew what the warning signs are better, in case their internal calibration was too far on the dangerous side initially, like mine was.
Except I was, and I did. And now I can recognize the signs that weren't obvious before, so I don't anymore. You're saying there's no way, and I'm giving you a concrete example of an instance.
> It's not as if it's a close thing where one minute you're alert and driving responsibly and the next minute you're out.
There's a huge range between "alert" and "asleep". I'm tired after a long day, yet I can drive responsibly. Even a the point where I could lay down and easily go to sleep if I chose to, I'm fine to drive for quite a while after that (preferred sleep time is not necessarily the same as responsible driving time, there are many factors that go into it).
> Anyone who can't make that determination reliably is demonstrably unfit to be in charge of a vehicle and should hand in their licence.
So, have you been in that situation? Or just always stopped before you got to that point? Or not even driven over a long enough period to be in that situation? You haven't even presented any anecdotal evidence, you've just made assertions that what I said I personally experienced can't be how I described it (and implied I was demonstrably unfit to drive at the point I said this happened to me).
And, in the gentlest possible way, if you were unable to recognise that you were so tired that you were likely to fall asleep while driving and make another choice, you were demonstrably unfit to drive at that time. It might have been understandable, particularly if you were young and inexperienced, but you still shouldn't have driven at that time and your actions were still irresponsible and dangerous.
Anyway, I think I'm done with this discussion. There are several posters here who are literally arguing that it's OK to drive knowing that they are severely impaired and have a much greater risk than any normal person would of injuring or killing someone. I can't argue rationally against such an irresponsible and selfish position, and my blood pressure has probably gone through the roof reading all of these comments and thinking of all the people who would disagree with them but can't because they're dead.
My example (and experience) wasn't about starting to drive. It was about being 4 hours into a 7-8 hour drive. The slow degradation of attention while sitting in a static position while watching static scenery go by for hours at a time.
> And, in the gentlest possible way, if you were unable to recognize that you were so tired that you were likely to fall asleep while driving and make another choice, you were demonstrably unfit to drive at that time.
Part of being unfit is sometimes not easily recognizing you're unfit. If you start in a perfectly fine shape, but degrade slowly over time, it can be hard to note the exact moment when things have gotten to a point where you should stop. And the whole point of my post was that recognizing this point, especially if it's over time and a slow degradation, can be hard if you've never experienced it before.
> I can't argue rationally against such an irresponsible and selfish position
Well, I don't think the people in this little corner of the discussion it are arguing that. People definitely shouldn't drive while impaired. I just think we should also consider, and see if there's a way to help, people that don't have enough experience to know when they're flirting with that state, for whatever reason it may be. Hopefully that at least some people here aren't arguing for allowing impaired people to drive is some consolation and reduces your stress at least a little. :/
I've driven the family from Northern Califorina to Sourthern California quite a few times, many of them overnight. It took one instance of actually falling asleep at the wheel for a few seconds to realize "oh, that's the difference between tired and falling asleep at the wheel."
I definitely recognize it now and never let it happen now (stopping and sleeping, trading out for someone else to drive, etc), but the point is I didn't think I was close to that level previously. Experience is something that we can't expect all people to have and exhibit the wisdom of, and unfortunately some things learned through experience are much harder (or nearly impossible) to teach without doing, and for dangerous things that's a problem for normal people.
As a much much more extreme example, I've heard that's why Navy Seal training keeps candidates up and physically and mentally exhausted for days at a time. Partly to see who can handle the pressure, and partly so they have experienced that condition before and understand it in themselves and others.