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Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by sspencer on Tuesday July 15, 2008 @11:51AM (#246752)
Excellent submission. That was an extremely well-written and particularly trenchant piece of writing.

It is interesting to compare the experiences of Ms. L to various people in their 40s returning to school when I was in undergrad. They too had difficulty with very basic (to us youngsters, anyway) methods of computer use. Many viewed computers with either outright terror or blatant suspicion.

I have often thought of volunteering my time to a college or tech school locally to teach computer-illiterate people the basics of computer use. It would be such a simple thing for me and judging by Ms. L's plight, it could make all the difference in the world to some people.

Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by maximilian on Tuesday July 15, 2008 @01:23PM (#246854)
It would be such a simple thing for me and judging by Ms. L's plight, it could make all the difference in the world to some people.

SIMPLE!!!??? You clearly didn't teach your parents to use computers. Teaching people how to use computers is one of the more challenging and frustrating things I have yet to do. Besides perhaps math, computers baffle more adults than anything I can imagine. I used to have 2 hours phone calls with my mom trying to "get her document back". She had just clicked another window and her word doc was behind it. 2 hours later she accidently clicked the word doc again and it came forward. Teaching the computer illiterate is a can of worms I wouldn't open without some serious friends and some serious beer.

Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by jbenz on Tuesday July 15, 2008 @01:53PM (#246891)
My Mom always wants the screen to "return to the way it was".

Me: You mean the desktop?

Mom: I don't know. The way it was.

Me: Is it this? (shows her the desktop)

Mom: No. It was all black.

Me: You mean off? (shuts computer down)

Mom: Yes. Thank you.

My Mom's a preschool teacher, and I will rely heavily on her wisdom when I have kids, seeing as I don't know jack about 3 year olds.

Me in 7 years: Mom, my kid won't eat his dinner. I think I got a broken one.

We all have our own useful areas of knowledge.

Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by michaelneale on Tuesday July 15, 2008 @07:12PM (#247161)
Having kids myself, yes I can relate to that.

I complain to my folks about what I see as major character problems in my little one, only to have my parents smile knowingly (I think they think its justice of some sort). The mention something about that being "familiar" behavior they saw once upon a time ;)

Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by DaniFong on Tuesday July 15, 2008 @10:32PM (#247269)
Aza and Jef Raskin's evangelism of static interfaces make a lot more sense in light of this. Thanks.
Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by sspencer on Tuesday July 15, 2008 @01:53PM (#246892)
I meant simple in the sense that it would be a pretty straightforward way for me to help people like Ms. L. I doubt it would be in any way easy.

And I taught my mother from basic computer illiteracy into practically a power user (well, a relative power user: email and surfing and transferring images from her digital camera. she's the envy of all her friends, at least...).

The biggest hurdle was getting her to believe me that no matter what she did, she couldn't possibly harm the computer beyond my ability to repair it. I think a lot of people unfamiliar with computers think that it is very easy to irreparably damage them. It kind of discourages taking risks and trying to solve problems on your own. Once I made it clear that she could (and should) do whatever she wanted without fear, she picked it up extremely rapidly.

Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by maximilian on Tuesday July 15, 2008 @04:57PM (#247075)
I was basically joshing you. I agree with you on that hurdle though. Most people think of computers as machines. If you use a machine incorrectly, or in the wrong order, you can break it or even injure yourself. Computers, usually at least, don't work that way. It'd be pretty hard for my parents to mess up the computer more than losing that email they just spent the last hour hunt-and-pecking away at.
Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by smelendez on Tuesday July 15, 2008 @08:37PM (#247206)
I think that it's not only that older people didn't grow up with, say, the Windows interface or, as someone mentioned earlier, a telephone interface where you have to press send to make a call, it's an even more basic issue. They grew up in a world where machinery was expensive, fragile and dangerous and a world where adults seldom learned to operate fundamentally new machinery. Even sturdy, harmless household machinery wasn't safe to "play around" with. One reason you had to dial 1 to make a long distance call, even before exchanges and area codes overlapped, is to reduce the risk of misdialing or misunderstanding your way into a big bill. If you pick up the phone in the middle of the night and dial random numbers to figure out the numbering scheme and whether it takes longer to call cross-country, you'll get a big bill and, if you piss enough people off, get a visit from the police or a stern letter from the phone company. If you enter random URLs into your browser, you're unlikely to break anything.

We (younger people) have an advantage in that we're used to pretty much everything being software driven, so we know that if we screw up our computer, phone or DVD player we can just pull the plug or the battery. We're also used to the idea that not every device will behave the same way to achieve the same function. We press "send" to "send" a call, but not to send an SMS message, even though the latter is standard usage and the former is not, but we don't care because we know that's how the UI works. And, we know that we'll have to keep learning new UIs as we get older. Older people don't have a problem dialing nine for an outside line, even though at home they just pick up the receiver, because they probably learned it in their 20s.

Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by neilk on Tuesday July 15, 2008 @04:07PM (#247028)
It tries my patience too, but we just have to remember: to the uninitiated, it's all rectangles. You and I see 'windows', 'buttons', etc, but to them it's all rectangles.

We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting.

Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by aasarava on Tuesday July 15, 2008 @04:59PM (#247077)
We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting.

Tech interfaces are usable -- they're just not intuitive to those who didn't grow up using computers. Ironically, part of the problem is that the metaphors and shortcuts that some interfaces use in an attempt to make things easier end up make things more confusing:

- Operating systems: "Why is the trashcan on my desktop?"

- Macs: "If I want to eject the CD, I'm supposed to throw it away in the trashcan?"

- Cell phones: "So you're saying I have to hold down the off button if I want to turn the phone on?"

So yeah, we do have a long, long way to go.

Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by derefr on Tuesday July 15, 2008 @10:09PM (#247252)
Well, with OSX at least, the trash is in the dock (so not quite on the desktop any more), and most people eject using the single-purpose Eject button on their keyboards. Also, the button is usually marked with an "1/0" symbol, not really an "off", so it really just means "toggle power."
Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by gaius on Wednesday July 16, 2008 @02:47AM (#247395)
But that is true of any machinery. Could you walk up to a lathe and immediately start making something?
Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by aasarava on Thursday July 17, 2008 @11:58AM (#248598)
Not many people have to use a lathe. It's designed for specialists to use, and the knowledge of how to use it is a given prerequisite that the designer takes into account.

Cellphones on the other hand are one of the most widely distributed electronic devices in the world, and they're clearly designed for anyone to use. It's certainly the designer's prerogative to assume the user will have a certain level of training and familiarity with it (or will take the time to learn it), but my argument is that in some cases a designer who goes the extra mile and makes a truly intuitive device has the opportunity to capture a much larger user base.

You could say that's what blogger did -- there were many ways to build a blog before, but Evan Williams and co. made it much easier to launch and maintain one, and that paid off for them.

Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by blogimus on Tuesday July 15, 2008 @05:12PM (#247088)
Or also with the cell phone: "Why do I have to press 'send' to make a call? On a regular phone, I just dial the number. I press 'send' when I send a fax."
Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by derefr on Tuesday July 15, 2008 @10:10PM (#247253)
Not on a cordless phone you don't (does anyone really have a phone any more that has a dial tone from the moment you pick it up?)
Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by jkramar on Wednesday July 16, 2008 @01:14AM (#247352)
Yes, in fact we don't have a single cordless phone. We do, however, have a regular phone with a ridiculously long cord that can thus be carried around.
Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by stcredzero on Wednesday July 16, 2008 @03:19PM (#247866)
"I have often thought of volunteering my time to a college or tech school locally to teach computer-illiterate people the basics of computer use. It would be such a simple thing for me and judging by Ms. L's plight, it could make all the difference in the world to some people."

If you do this enough, you will inevitably come up against a real challenge. One of my students could not even double-click. She would raise her hand to hover a couple of inches above the mouse, then stab down with her finger twice. Not only was this too slow to register as a double click, she invariably moved the mouse. with each downward stab of her finger. I would show her the right way to do it, but she would always devolve to her old behavior.

Re:In the Basement of the Ivory Tower by gaius on Wednesday July 16, 2008 @02:46AM (#247394)
It's that preconception that is responsible for widespread "ageism" in the IT industry.

Do you not perhaps think that correlation is not causation? Maybe "dropping out of the education system early" is in fact a more significant data point than being 40? I'm 32 and if things stay as they are, in 10 years I'll have real trouble changing jobs in this industry. The current crop of geeks are in for a nasty surprise if they think they'll be a hot commodity forever.