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Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by Rochus on Saturday October 03, 2020 @05:14PM (#24674724)
Why should there be a link between C++ and Smalltalk?
Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by jcelerier on Saturday October 03, 2020 @05:21PM (#24674760)
From its creator's own words:

https://www.stroustrup.com/bs_faq.html#from-Smalltalk

> C++ got its Object-Oriented concepts from Smalltalk?

> No. C++ got the key notions of classes, derived classes, virtual functions (in other words, the notions of encapsulation, inheritance and polymorphism) from Simula just like Smalltalk did. In terms of family relationships, C++ and Smalltalk are siblings.

Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by Rochus on Saturday October 03, 2020 @06:07PM (#24675043)
So a good reason to do without the link. If so, C++ and Smalltalk-80 would have to point to Simula 67. But it does not look like the author of the referenced article optimized for scientific accuracy anyway.
Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by tankenmate on Saturday October 03, 2020 @05:21PM (#24674755)
I think a lot of people get it mixed up with Objective-C (which is a derivative of sorts of Smalltalk).

And C++ derives much from Simula which comes from Algol. And C derives much from Algol. And link between C and C++ is kinda obvious!

Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by thelazydogsback on Saturday October 03, 2020 @05:36PM (#24674838)
Objective-C isn't so much a language as one language embedded in another -- C + ST inside square brackets...
Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by aidenn0 on Saturday October 03, 2020 @06:44PM (#24675230)
The blazing fast speed of Smalltalk combined with the memory safety of C
Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by thelazydogsback on Saturday October 03, 2020 @05:35PM (#24674830)
Well, because OO - and if Simula isn't there, then that's where the link would be. Even if Simula did come first, ST is certainly the "OO root" that most people know, so I'm fine with Simula -> ST -> C++ as a reasonable path.
Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by Rochus on Saturday October 03, 2020 @06:01PM (#24675012)
This is a widespread misconception. The first Smalltalk version in 1972 didn't even have inheritance. Although Kay is ascribed the term object orientation, he understands it to mean something quite different than most. It was Ingalls who first introduced the properties generally referred to as object-oriented and implemented in Simula as early as 1967 into his version Smalltalk-76. The influence of Smalltalk is generally overestimated.
Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by socialdemocrat on Sunday October 04, 2020 @04:11AM (#24677254)
Yes most people know it because Americans are good at marketing themselves and Norwegians , who made Simula, are pretty bad at marketing because being humble and and not blow your own horn is kind of a big deal.

But I know at the University of Oslo there has been some annoyance that Simula’s place in programming history is so unknown while smalltalk has this outsized role.

Smalltalk definitely inspired Objective-C but C++ is clearly derived from Simula. As a fellow Scandinavian Bjarne was well aware of Simula and an active user of it.

Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by 59nadir on Sunday October 11, 2020 @11:28AM (#24746433)
Bjarne Stroustrup learned most of what he knows about OO from Kristen Nygaard personally, as he was at Aarhus University at the same time as Nygaard was there. He'd sit and talk to Nygaard for hours, but noted in an interview with Lex Fridman that it was usually just Nygaard talking at him for hours and him soaking as much as possible up. So even "well aware" is a bit of an understatement.
Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by int_19h on Monday October 05, 2020 @12:33AM (#24684581)
In terms of design influence, Simula is a lot closer to C++, Java, and C# than Smalltalk is, so I don't think that would be accurate even so.

Every time you write "protected" or "virtual", that's Simula speaking.

Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by Rochus on Monday October 05, 2020 @04:07AM (#24685596)
Classes and "virtual" procedures were indeed already part of the original "Simula 67 Common Base Definition" in June 1967, but "protected" and "hidden" were added later (proposed here https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/956003.956009, and probably added to the Common Base Language in 1982).
Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by dnautics on Saturday October 03, 2020 @05:18PM (#24674745)
Besides the fact that they have object orientation as a guiding paradigm? (Different though their faithfulness and implementation may be)
Re:An opinionated history of programming languages by Rochus on Saturday October 03, 2020 @05:56PM (#24674974)
C++ and Smalltalk-80 have a common ancestor called Simula 67, but neither Smalltalk was derived from C++ nor vice versa.