1: In 2002, long before I was a dev, I made about $14,000, working at a local YMCA. I had plenty of money. I paid rent (shared), I went out to eat a couple times per week (mainly the $13.50 all-you-can-eat crab at the chinese place), and I spent my leisure time how I wanted--for me that was primarily gaming, fishing (from the shore), programming, and coaching youth sports. I drove a beater car and did not have any luxury in my life, but I had a nice PC, a few nice fishing rods, etc.

I managed to save money without much issue, and I moved out of that place with $12k cash.

It was a very good time in my life, probably the best time. I think you maybe have a different idea about what makes you happy--those "frivolous pleasures." Simpler living is not the same as asceticism.

I am in a position in my life now, having bought a rural property ($60k for 40 acres and a home), where I could live for much less than I did at that time. Some things I find rewarding there are raising a few animals, gardening, hunting, camping on my own property, woodworking in my small woodshop (hand tools are cheaper and I find them particularly rewarding), repairing/restoring things, servicing my own vehicles, and relying more on myself and my own talents. Some of the best times are spent sitting in a chair on my shop porch--a type of meditation perhaps. I don't feel like an ascetic, and I realize that it's not a life for everyone, but surely it's a good life, and preferable to being a drone with no free time and no money to spend in any free time.

2: I think they were speaking less about financial risk, like risking your savings, and more about other kinds of risks. Later in my life I moved to Costa Rica for a time (on an aside, I lived there about as cheaply as I did in my YMCA days). I was scared to do it, by myself, etc, but I looked at worst case scenarios, and it was like...I squandered my savings (10-15k, I don't remember), I was alive, bruised ego, and I went back to the US and got a low-paying job. I held out an amount of money equal to a plane ticket in case that scenario presented itself, and I had a great time in Costa Rica. I moved back with more money than I left with.

Just curious -

$60k for 40 acres and a home

What state are you in and how far from a big city?

It's in the Ozarks, and it's 2.5 hours from Little Rock, 90 minutes from Branson. So quite far.

What's the broadband like?

Not sure why you're being downvoted. I lived what you're saying. It's a reality for a lot of people.

Cheapest option at a proper restaurant: glass of water. I had times where that was the only option that I could manage, unless my friends insisted on paying for me. I'd feel bad, but they were better off and didn't mind (at least they said they didn't mind) and otherwise I might not have even gone out with them.

Splurging for me was going and getting 4 items off the dollar value menu at Wendy's instead of 2 or 3.

But it wouldn't really matter. I'd get sick, have to go to the doctor, get a bill I couldn't pay, it'd go to collections and wreck my credit, then my car would break down the same week, then it breaks down again in a different way a few months later, and will keep doing so because it's an old piece of shit but you can't get anything better, and there's just no getting ahead. Just sinking further and further into debt.

I didn't break out of that cycle until I got a job that almost doubled my salary and dedicated a couple of years to just digging myself out of the hole I had gotten myself into.

I'm a lot better off right now. Actually have savings, some investments. House, dogs, wife, spend more money than I should on stuff I don't really need. But I'm way, way behind others my age in my industry, and my credit is just okay now, not great.

> I'd feel bad, but they were better off and didn't mind (at least they said they didn't mind)

They didn't mind. It feels very good to do something nice for a friend. If it didn't, they wouldn't keep inviting you.

Also, when I could only afford water, I learned how to say something to the effect of "That's okay, I already ate, I'll just have some water," or if at a bar "No thank you, I'm a designated driver, just some water," to make it seem like it wasn't because I was broke. Probably didn't always work, but no one said anything about it.

I've been in the same boat (see other posts). It sucks so much. And so much of the problem is the expense of transport, which is externalized onto regular folks rather than being paid for with taxes.

Even when I was broke and living in NYC, I could still afford my subway pass. I mean barely, but I afforded it. That meant I could always get to the temp job I needed to get to without worrying.

If you think of car ownership as a "tax" because it's required in most parts of the country, it becomes a very expensive regressive tax indeed.

> which is externalized onto regular folks

You appear to be very mistaken about the meaning of "externalized" (this is, of course, the charitable interpretation). Paying for a good or service you yourself consume does not constitute an externality. In fact, the exact opposite is true: if you forces others to pay for your open transportation, that would be an externality.

In NYC and other major cities, the mid-century city planners were convinced / bribed by oil and car companies to tear down their elevated tracks and install freeways; remove their cable cars and replace them with slower, less efficient bus routes.

The common good of affordable and reliable public transportation was transformed into an everybody-must-own-a-car system.

Thus you and I and other people are paying tens of thousands of dollars to own and maintain cars because business interests felt it would be better for us to do so.

This reply confirms my suspicion that you are mistaken about the meaning of "externalize". What you describe does not constitute an externality, although I do appreciate the explanation. This holds even though I tend to agree that what happened was a bad thing, though for different reasons.

However, it is important to remember that words mean something, and anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something (usually something involving the deaths of millions, but I digress...).

> I had times where that was the only option that I could manage, unless my friends insisted on paying for me.

I expect that you returned the favor, although maybe not to the exact same friends. :-)

That's true, I have, to other people.

1. I have been lucky, but I’m also a 2nd generation immigrant. I remember how many things my parents had to deny themselves (and me) growing up. Of course this mileage only takes you so far, but on many incomes, there’s real power here. The fact that it’s painful to deny yourself these things is the point. Most bad financial things happen to people who won’t tolerate that pain, so they get locked in marginal situations with little room to take risks or have anything go wrong. Eventually, something always goes wrong. This is the only way to protect yourself. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt.

2. This is the exact point. Each of us have to judge the consequences of failure for each decision. If you only have a couple hundred dollars left after expenses, risk aversion is the right call—-and falls well within the real of managing your risk.