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Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by jasode on Saturday September 26, 2020 @11:52AM (#24599681)
Ok, I watched the video and his rationale for why his guitar tabs were "fair use":

1) he wrote out the tabs himself instead of copying them from a copyrighted book and

2) he wasn't making any direct money by selling the tabs themselves; however he also acknowledges was getting indirect money via Youtube monetization of the videos that displayed the tabs on screen

Unfortunately, he was naive and probably wasn't aware of history. Back in the USENET days, the famous OLGA On-line Guitar Archive[1] was previously shutdown even though the guitar tabs contributions were made by volunteers for no money.

He was playing with copyright fire and didn't know it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-line_Guitar_Archive

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by rwnspace on Saturday September 26, 2020 @12:12PM (#24599828)
I cannot convey how much I miss OLGA. My first taste of irritating copyright laws over art was they came for Napster, but I was still pretty young so I didn't feel it much. When they came for OLGA, I was skipping school to play guitar 12+ hours a day. It was around my 15th birthday. I'm pretty sure I cried. I still have a precious folder of printouts from <2006 - I don't play guitar much now, but it only just occurred to me that OLGA is probably somewhere online... :D
Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by pen2l on Saturday September 26, 2020 @12:50PM (#24600203)
Do you miss the community element of it or what?

Because tabs for pretty much anything are fairly easy to find nowadays... except even better: dynamic tabs are very much in the vogue now (tabs with multiple tracks that you can instantly play and verify if it’s good by how it sounds). You can loop certain parts, slow them down, etc for effective practicing.

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by viraptor on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:50PM (#24603564)
It's still hard to find quality tabs that go beyond chords. Even ultimate guitar with its "official" tabs is not great - they don't match the recording or are accurate with notes, but are not possible to play (things like ghost notes on 2nd fret between two barre chords on 8th).
Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by ulucs on Sunday September 27, 2020 @02:50AM (#24604740)
Ultimate guitar just copies the most popular guitar pro tab and labels it official, they might be paying the tabber, but they are not tabbing themselves.
Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by oxygenoxy on Saturday September 26, 2020 @02:21PM (#24600943)
Can you provide any links to info on dynamic tabs?
Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by felipe_ii on Saturday September 26, 2020 @08:34PM (#24603279)
There were a few programs that I used in the past to write and playback my own tabs.

The main program I used was TuxGuitar [1]. I felt it suited my purposes - I could work out the rhythm and positioning with this program and play files in various formats. The sound quality and features were adequate - sort of a low-fi MIDI sound where different timbres and instruments could be selected. It looks like it may not be a maintained product, but the source is available if you want to tinker with it [2].

Another program that my friends used to use is Power Tab. The original programs look to be abandoned, but it seems that an open-source implementation is actively maintained here. [3]

There is a commercial product called Guitar Pro, but I felt the open-source packages were good enough. Guitar Pro also had an active community (maybe it still does), and many users would contribute their own tabs in Guitar Pro's file format (.gp3, .gp4, etc.) which I would read and edit with TuxGuitar. It used to be pretty easy to find these files available online, but I suspect copyright holders cracked down on these communities much like they did with OLGA.

[1] http://tuxguitar.com.ar/

[2] https://sourceforge.net/projects/tuxguitar/

[3] https://github.com/powertab/powertabeditor

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by rdbell on Saturday September 26, 2020 @04:01PM (#24601683)
Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by adrianh on Sunday September 27, 2020 @03:13AM (#24604856)
https://www.soundslice.com is easily the best for this β€” it syncs tabs with original source recordings, has practice tools built in and has a full-featured editor. All web-based.

(Disclaimer: I help make it)

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by mahmoudhossam on Saturday September 26, 2020 @08:02PM (#24603135)
Rocksmith is basically guitar tabs on steroids, and it's been getting content for almost 7 years until they finally stopped a few months ago.
Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by Aengeuad on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:25PM (#24603473)
Should be noted that they stopped working on DLC to focus on what will probably be a sequel.

https://theriffrepeater.com/rocksmith-announces-new-rocksmit...

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by bjelkeman-again on Sunday September 27, 2020 @12:22AM (#24604211)
It has a lot of custom made content by volunteers here. http://customsforge.com/
Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by wool_gather on Saturday September 26, 2020 @12:13PM (#24599842)
> the famous OLGA On-line Guitar Archive[1] was previously shutdown even though the guitar tabs contributions were made by volunteers for no money.

And then, to further the travesty, those freely contributed tabs were hoovered up by commercial sites and became only available there.

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by kbenson on Saturday September 26, 2020 @12:55PM (#24600261)
That seems like it should be illegal. Even if the commercial tabs were copyrighted, I wouldn't think they could take someone's work product without recompense. Unless maybe ownership/licensing went to OLGA on submission and they were part of damages?
Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by wool_gather on Saturday September 26, 2020 @04:16PM (#24601768)
There were no damages as far as I know: I'm not sure what the OLGA org consisted of, but I don't believe it ended up going to court. They decided the fight was too big.

I think that the situation is like this. The music publishers' whole assertion was that, because of licensing laws around sheet music, the tabs were not so much illegitimate as inherently owned by the publishers. Regardless of who created them or how. Thus OLGA couldn't publish them without licensing them. (And OLGA couldn't afford the licenses, obviously.)

But since -- again, under the publishers' legal theory -- the tabs are owned by the publishers, they could license the tabs to whoever they liked. Such as these new leeches.

And no one has had enough interest to challenge this state of affairs. It would probably take some kind of class action, gathering up a bunch of the tab authors. And I have no idea if that fight is even feasible under existing law.

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by bdowling on Sunday September 27, 2020 @12:11AM (#24604173)
As I understand it, this is basically correct. OLGA and the tab creators couldn't publish the tabs because they didn't own the musical compositions. The only ones who could publish the tabs without being sued were the owners or licensees of the composition rights, the publishers. So effectively they owned them even though someone else did all the work to make them.

This isn't a crazy outcome and it matches up well with traditional property laws. For example, suppose Olga came to my house without my knowledge, mowed my front lawn for me, and then I come home and I eject her for trespassing. In that case I still get to enjoy my nicely mowed front lawn (i.e., the product of Olga's labor) and Olga doesn't have any right to payment because we didn't have any kind of agreement. (Note: This actually happens sometimes when painters paint the wrong house. The owner getting a free paint job is less bad than forcing the owner to pay something he didn't bargain for.)

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by 9000 on Sunday September 27, 2020 @01:18AM (#24604397)
> This isn't a crazy outcome and it matches up well with traditional property laws.

Yeah, but copyright is not a form of traditional property right. Intellectual "property" rights are better thought of as intellectual monopolies granted for a limited time, and this is important because intellectual works have some very different properties that separate them from physical property.

For instance, in your examples, the lawn mower cannot easily "un-mow" the lawn nor the painters "un-paint" the house. Any attempt to do so would be labor intensive. However, in the OLGA copyright case, the publishers can trivially force the infringers to no longer publish the tabs, undoing any further damage. In the lawn mower and house painting case, the labor is fundamentally tied to the physical property being infringed. However, with intellectual property, this is explicitly not the case. The tabs do not alter the original song in any way, they are merely a derivative work.

To be explicit, while the transferal of rights over the tabs to the copyright holders may be granted by a judge as part of reparation of harm done, I see no reason that the music publishers should presume to own the rights outright without the intervention of a court.

For one final example as to why we should not conflate intellectual works and physical property, if I were to trespass onto your land and paint a beautiful painting of your landscape (with supplies I own) and then leave without causing damage, do you... own the painting? Just own the copyright? Own none of it? It is definitely not clear to me that you should automatically own my painting, even if I infringed your property rights by trespassing.

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by bdowling on Sunday September 27, 2020 @04:14AM (#24605071)
> The tabs do not alter the original song in any way, they are merely a derivative work.

If the tabs do not alter the original song in any way, then they are more like a literal copy than a derivative work. A literal copy, even one that took a long time to make, will not contain any separately copyrightable elements. A derivative work, however, may contain its own separately copyrightable elements, even if it was made without permission. For example, Fifty Shades of Grey started out as a Twilight fanfiction by E. L. James called Master of the Universe. James could not publish Master of the Universe without infringing the Twilight elements owned by Stephanie Meyer. But nor could Meyer publish Master of the Universe without infringing E. L. James's copyright in the elements that didn't come from Twilight.

> the transferal of rights over the tabs to the copyright holders may be granted by a judge

It is unlikely that a court would ever transfer title from an infringer to a copyright owner because (1) it's not necessary, and (2) in the case of a derivative work it may be unjust. To continue my prior example, if Stephanie Meyer had sued E. L. James for publishing Master of the Universe, it would have been unjust for a court to transfer title to her because the infringing derivative work contained copyrightable elements separate from those created by Stephanie Meyer. Usually a court will just order payment of damages (money), except where damages alone would be unjust. In the case of a settlement, however, the parties may agree to whatever terms they want.

Here, as I understand it, the tabs do not contain copyrightable elements separable from those owned by the composer. If a tab contained an adaptation of one instrument to a different instrument or an adaptation of several instruments to a solo instrument, then there may be some separate copyrightable elements in that adaptation. However, if the tabs are merely one-to-one transcriptions of the guitar part of the original composition, then once you take away the original composition there is nothing left that is separately copyrightable. If that is the case, then the tab creators have no rights, even though they spent time and effort in the transcription.

> if I were to trespass onto your land and paint a beautiful painting of your landscape

This example is easy to answer. I wouldn't own the painting because it was merely left on my property (technically, I would be called an involuntary bailee). I wouldn't own the copyright to the painting because I didn't paint it. If the landscape is natural, then I don't own any copyright in it because I didn't create it (in copyright terms, I'm not the author). The landscape might include something copyrightable, however, perhaps a sculpture that I created. In that case the painting may infringe on that copyright, but I would have to make the usual arguments (literal copying, substantial similarity, etc.) and you would make the usual defenses (fair use, etc.).

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by wool_gather on Sunday September 27, 2020 @12:15PM (#24607740)
> This isn't a crazy outcome and it matches up well with traditional property laws.

It isn't a crazy outcome in the context of current IP law. I personally think it's an outrageous outcome and shows a clear weakness of that state of law.

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by bdowling on Sunday September 27, 2020 @01:51PM (#24608569)
> I personally think it's an outrageous outcome

Could you say exactly what you find outrageous about it? Is it the idea that someone could spend a lot of time and effort on something only to find out that the product of their work has no value?

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by marcan_42 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @11:59PM (#24604124)
I do wonder what the legal basis for copyrightability is here; to some extent, this sounds like the publishing companies might be making legal arguments up that would not stand up in court.

Song melodies are copyrightable, as are recordings, and lyrics. But chord progressions are not. So a guitar tab containing only chords (not lead melodies) and no guide lyrics sounds to me like it ought to be entirely fair to publish. Of course, many tabs include lyrics or other elements that verge into copyright infringement, but the idea that all tabs are necessarily derivative from the original song and subject to its copyright sounds wrong on the face of it.

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by Justsignedup on Monday September 28, 2020 @11:40AM (#24617804)
First of all

Thank you for analyzing. This gives fantastic context into the problem he had with his lack of copyright knowledge.

The big issue I have here is he was navigating a minefield. He and people like him are the reason YouTube exists. There has to be a better way of what YouTube is doing than just a "if you trip up a minor easily exploitable offense you are gone".

His sob story definitely left details out, but this is the way of YouTube. And YouTube gives no real support unless you go viral with your sob story.

So in the end... This is just fucking terrible.

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by soylentcola on Monday September 28, 2020 @10:30AM (#24616962)
A friend of mine in college (mid-90s) thought it would be cool to host a mirror of OLGA on a bit of server space he got as a computer science student as a way to help out the project.

I can't remember if the issue was a sudden spike in traffic or legal threats but I do remember that it was taken down. Still, compared to the sort of repercussions we take for granted nowadays, it almost seems quaint that all he got was a slap on the wrist and it had to be taken offline.

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by Grollicus on Saturday September 26, 2020 @01:24PM (#24600501)
I suspect naively it shouldn't be too hard to decode an existing recording of music into the notes played. Maybe combined with some instrument discovery?

From there, it should be possible to mangle it into a tabulature?

Does that exist on github? Could be an instant olga without copyright violations.

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by akersten on Saturday September 26, 2020 @01:31PM (#24600555)
> I suspect naively it shouldn't be too hard to decode an existing recording of music into the notes played.

What you expect not to be too hard to do, is actually the 'holy grail' of the field - Algorithmic Melody Transcription is the kind of thing people write entire papers on[0].

[0]: https://www.ee.columbia.edu/~dpwe/pubs/PolEFGSO07-meleval.pd...

There are a few toy examples if you search "algorithmic music transcription github," one of the better-known ones is [1] (but it's limited to piano music). They're all pretty nascent. It's a real hard problem :)

[1]: https://github.com/rachhshruti/automatic-music-transcription

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by dehrmann on Saturday September 26, 2020 @02:30PM (#24601008)
I recently stumbled across some videos where a producer breaks down how some very good songs are produced. Here's one he does for a Max Martin track where you get screenshots of the track in Pro Tools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBDJDZAo41c

> From there, it should be possible to mangle it into a tabulature?

A produced pop track might be a little extreme, but there's a lot going on in these tracks. Even if you know the chord progression, it's hard to tell if a note played by a guitar is played by the rhythm guitar, lead guitar, an overdub, something with double tracking, or even an overtone from the bass, especially when the note makes the chord an add4. The same goes for walking basslines played by the guitar.

You also arrange things differently for solo performances, live performances with a band, and produced performances, so even if you could extract a rhythm guitar tab from a recording, that might not be how you'd want to play it solo.

Re:Update on YouTube copyright dispute over guitar tutorials... by CMay on Saturday September 26, 2020 @08:17PM (#24603211)
Celemony Melodyne has supported some form of Audio to MIDI translation for over a decade and may be the most accurate at it.

Back then:

- https://youtu.be/8zeLKMHxbN8?t=561

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ2lWslJVOc

Now:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvBYZPlitWE