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Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by Mediterraneo10 on Friday September 25, 2020 @05:49PM (#24594475)
Meanwhile, I’m always amazed how, on HN threads about Emacs, people talk about preferring the Vi family of editors. When I installed Linux on my computer two decades ago and had to learn *nix, my own (totally subjective) impression was that the Vi family was regarded as clunky and half-obsolete, about as much of a pain as editing in ed. As I began to contribute to the Free Software community, most of the other people I interacted with seemed to use Emacs. So, to find out that Vi is still used and loved in 2020 has been a shock.
Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by pritovido on Friday September 25, 2020 @06:55PM (#24594911)
When I entered a technical University in Spain, all the masters(teachers that have done incredible things on their lives) used either Vim or Emacs.

Most "normal" people just used other "more visual" editors.

As I learned from the masters I started using more and more both vim for unix tasks and programming and emacs for lisp. Now I use 65%vim, 30% emacs, 5% other editors.

Both of those editors are extremely powerful. But you need to know how to use them. It is not painful for the master to use them, in fact it is automatic and instantaneous and faster than any other editor, a thought becomes an action without conscious intervention, like you thing in playing Do minor in an instrument and your fingers do it automatically, you want to erase a line or replace a word, you think on it, is done.

They are like musical instruments. You could have the best piano or violin in the world, if a mediocre player plays them, you get bad sound.

Most people would be better served with a simple electronic piano or a tablet with lights that point to the next notes of the song, and auto correct them when they play a bad note.

Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by _benj on Friday September 25, 2020 @07:17PM (#24595037)
Your reference to musical instruments resonates with me (I play piano) and the fact that emacs call they keyboard bindings "chords" further complements that view.

I guess the issue that is being handled here thought is that, just like the piano, the road for those actions to become unconscious is a long painful one.

When I started using Golang for work the first thing that I did was buy GoLand from jetbrains. It just works, and I'm paid for "playing piano", not for "learning how to play piano"

I wish I was able to use emacs professionally but until I'm able to dedicate (usually unpaid) time to learn it, it's just easier to use something else

Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by necubi on Friday September 25, 2020 @11:43PM (#24596240)
It's really not that painful. In college I spent two weeks forcing myself to use emacs for everything. I printed out a reference card and unplugged my mouse to prevent cheating. It was not a productive two weeks, but afterwards I was proficient in emacs editing and have been ever since. (Of course true emacs mastery goes much deeper, but it really doesn't take that long to become proficient.)
Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by quanticle on Saturday September 26, 2020 @04:58AM (#24597383)
A broke college student with nothing to lose but time and a professional programmer have entirely two different definitions of "painful". A broke college student will spend two weeks learning emacs to avoid paying for a $100 IDE. A professional developer will happily pay for a $100 IDE if it saves him two weeks of time.
Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by throwaway_pdp09 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @07:24AM (#24597952)
It's an investment and the payback is considerable. I can start up emacs in any environment and it works the same. I could go back 20 years and use emacs without trouble.

Also I can move around in emacs and do stuff with macros that has saved me a lot of time. And emacs rarely has problems, unlike visual studio, which crashes occasionally and is permanently sending my dual-core to 100% of both.

Emacs refactoring, heh, not so good... So I use both, do main editing in emacs.

Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by quanticle on Friday October 02, 2020 @10:28AM (#24662947)
But you're not going to go back 20 years. No one's going to come along with a time machine and send you back to the year 2000. And, unlike vi, emacs isn't part of the POSIX standard, so your production servers aren't going to have emacs preinstalled. If you're a new programmer, with zero experience, why would you bother learning a program that is going to make you less productive than your peers and isn't going to give you any advantages when you're debugging in production? What exactly is the payoff to this "investment"?
Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by antepodius on Saturday September 26, 2020 @06:40AM (#24597767)
In this case, it isn't about money, but proficiency.
Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by quanticle on Friday October 02, 2020 @10:30AM (#24662968)
Proficiency? Proficiency in what? Proficiency in learning a completely irrelevant language to spend two months getting up to the same level everyone else gets to in two weeks?
Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by antepodius on Thursday October 08, 2020 @06:50PM (#24724783)
Slower to learn, but with a higher cap, and more likely to endure for four more decades than a given learn-in-two-weeks gui program.
Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by zdragnar on Saturday September 26, 2020 @03:29AM (#24597049)
> in fact it is automatic and instantaneous and faster than any other editor

Really? I've always found emacs to be on the slower side of things (not nearly as bad as jetbrains / visual studio, of course) and many keyboard commands to be unnecessarily clunky. I don't know how many times I've given emacs a go, and yet I can't seem to get nearly as proficient as I am with VSCode (and sublimetext before that).

I know part of it is that I don't typically work in languages where having a live REPL up is terribly useful, so emacs support tends to be a bit... second class.

I think my biggest gripe is that there are actually two mountains to climb. First, you have to become proficient with emacs- the chords and so forth. Then you have to find the magical combination of plugins that work together on your operating system with the magical configuration that brings emacs up to par with things that I consider to be table stakes for a good development experience. Doom emacs probably got me the closest there, I think, but struggling to become moderately productive when I already have a tool with which I am extremely productive seems entirely pointless.

Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by spudlyo on Friday September 25, 2020 @06:33PM (#24594796)
I think the thing about Vi and Vim that has the most value in 2020 is not the software itself, but rather the keyboard-centric composable modal editing system that they popularized.

Some of the growth that Emacs has enjoyed over the past several years is from folks who want the Vim style modal editing in an editor as customizable and extensible as Emacs. Emacs "distributions" such as Doom and Spacemacs cater to these folks.

Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by how_gauche on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:39AM (#24598764)
Many of us switched to evil mode because we got RSI from incorrectly chording all the time! C-a & C-e I'm looking at you
Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by paledot on Friday September 25, 2020 @07:37PM (#24595134)
I came to vim (years ago now) because I was experiencing RSI from all of the chorded keyboard shortcuts I was using in Coda. Emacs doesn't help with that, but vim does (if you `map ; :`).

Any editor feels clunky for the first week of using it, Vim and Emacs most of all. Nobody wastes the headspace in staying current on multiple editors. So I don't know that you'll ever see an objective comparison of the two. But they're both solid ways to write code, it just takes way too long to get either one dialed in to do the things we expect modern editors to do out of the box, like code completion.

Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by bluenose69 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @06:01AM (#24597622)
I switched from emacs to vim for the same reason. I was doing a lot of typing, and my left hand started aching when I was stretching my fingers and eventually it just started aching all the time. So I thought, why not try vim, which I had used many decades before.

Things were very slow for a few days, and there was a lot of swearing, as I got weird results from hitting a wrong key. But after about a week I was able to get along adequately, and after another one, I was at the point where I was making choices for optimal methods without really thinking about whether typing 2w would be better than holding j for a while.

I think the key was that I made the switch during a vacation, when my workload was lower and I would not be so frustrated by learning enough that I could select between methods.

Learning either vim or emacs in a rush is not good because you are likely to become habitualized on a small subset of methods, and will be blocked from learning other methods that will increase your productivity some day.

Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by honr on Friday September 25, 2020 @08:26PM (#24595398)
Heh, most of my emacs shortcuts start with ;

Perhaps ironically, mac OS text input boxes are where I use most of the traditional emacs C-/M- keybindings these days.

Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by umanwizard on Saturday September 26, 2020 @06:29AM (#24597722)
Funnily enough, Bill Joy (creator of vi) said he would have made a modeless editor if he had thought of it, he just didn’t.

I use vi-family editors for the same reason I use grep: it’s installed everywhere. I’m not religious about its benefits.

Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by Skunkleton on Friday September 25, 2020 @06:24PM (#24594736)
I don't think many people are using Vi. Its more likely they are using vim or neovim, which are both far from clunky.
Re:Toward a “modern” Emacs by nineteen999 on Friday September 25, 2020 @10:04PM (#24595865)
I know I fell into it because I originally learnt UNIX on shitty XENIX servers which were basically AT&T SVR4 on x86. The internet and Linux weren't around then.

Later on I had to work with a number of different versions of different UNIX platforms on a daily basis (Tru64, Solaris, HP-UX, AIX) as well as multiple varieties of Linux, and vi was a common denominator on all of them.