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Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by tboyd47 on Friday September 25, 2020 @09:35AM (#24589523)
I don't know if it does or doesn't, because I've never seen any scientific studies on universal mask mandates. That's why I'm asking.
Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by Voloskaya on Friday September 25, 2020 @09:40AM (#24589574)
Finding one of those studies would have taken you way less time that typing your comment. So I think we can all safely assume you are not asking this question in good faith, and you wouldn't believe one such study anyway.
Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by tboyd47 on Friday September 25, 2020 @10:23AM (#24590059)
For your information, I was asking to expand my own knowledge on the subject. Top level commenter was adamant that masks were effective, so this being HN, where people typically know what they're talking about, I assumed they had a good reason to think that way. I have researched this a great deal myself, and have not found anything except flawed or inconclusive studies, like the majority of links submitted in this thread. Have a great day.
Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by DanBC on Friday September 25, 2020 @10:18AM (#24589975)
Parent post is right though, we don't have good evidence for mask wearing.

Here's a recent, high quality, paper in a high impact paper.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

> Although direct evidence is limited, the optimum use of face masks, in particular N95 or similar respirators in health-care settings and 12–16-layer cotton or surgical masks in the community, could depend on contextual factors; action is needed at all levels to address the paucity of better evidence. Eye protection might provide additional benefits. Globally collaborative and well conducted studies, including randomised trials, of different personal protective strategies are needed regardless of the challenges, but this systematic appraisal of currently best available evidence could be considered to inform interim guidance.

There's a bit to unpack here.

1) I don't know anyone wearing a 12 to 16 layer cotton mask. At best they're wearing 4 to 6 layers of cotton. Most people have maybe two layer masks.

2) "paucity of better evidence" isn't how I'd describe something that has great evidence.

Look at how that paper describes the evidence for distancing vs masking:

> Our search identified 172 observational studies across 16 countries and six continents, with no randomised controlled trials and 44 relevant comparative studies in health-care and non-health-care settings (n=25 697 patients). Transmission of viruses was lower with physical distancing of 1 m or more, compared with a distance of less than 1 m (n=10 736, pooled adjusted odds ratio [aOR] 0·18, 95% CI 0·09 to 0·38; risk difference [RD] −10·2%, 95% CI −11·5 to −7·5; moderate certainty); protection was increased as distance was lengthened (change in relative risk [RR] 2·02 per m; pinteraction=0·041; moderate certainty). Face mask use could result in a large reduction in risk of infection (n=2647; aOR 0·15, 95% CI 0·07 to 0·34, RD −14·3%, −15·9 to −10·7; low certainty), with stronger associations with N95 or similar respirators compared with disposable surgical masks or similar (eg, reusable 12–16-layer cotton masks; pinteraction=0·090; posterior probability >95%, low certainty).

All of the mask evidence says "low certainty". That's from GRADE, and it means "low certainty (our confidence in the effect estimate is limited; the true effect could be substantially different from the estimate of the effect);"

Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by garyrob on Friday September 25, 2020 @09:53AM (#24589681)
Somebody posted in response to your original post that it took them 30 seconds to find this: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

Does it influence your position on whether or not masks are useful?

Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by DanBC on Friday September 25, 2020 @10:44AM (#24590316)
That paper says "when you put a mask on, and we immediately ask you to exhale onto a plate, we don't detect virus on that plate".

Parent poster isn't asking whether masks trap particles or not (clearly, they do), they're asking a much more interesting and useful question which is if we make everyone wear a mask does that prevent the spread of disease or not?

So far, we really don't have much evidence. In this thread, where lots of people are posting links, there's only one decent link posted by gameswithgo here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24589569

Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by tboyd47 on Friday September 25, 2020 @11:10AM (#24590608)
I replied in place.
Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by Loughla on Friday September 25, 2020 @09:54AM (#24589685)
So now that several other posters have given you several different links, are you modifying your stance at all? If not, why not?
Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by wyldfire on Friday September 25, 2020 @09:56AM (#24589714)
Please do not feed the trolls.
Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by DanBC on Friday September 25, 2020 @10:37AM (#24590242)
So far only one person has posted a link that answers OPs question, so it was a reasonable question to ask.
Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by CulturalOstrich on Friday September 25, 2020 @09:38AM (#24589559)
So until you see one which side of the fence do you land on? Wearing a mask or not wearing one?
Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by SketchySeaBeast on Friday September 25, 2020 @09:53AM (#24589675)
And importantly - why? Where does the risk/reward chart get so skewed that wearing a piece of cloth that can only barely be considered uncomfortable become an option that's unthinkable? It seems entirely plausible that it could help, what is the harm in trying it? It takes a lot of mental twisting to end up in a place where the potential risk of wearing a mask is larger than the potential reward.
Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by jlokier on Friday September 25, 2020 @10:40AM (#24590277)
I agree with you. It's just some cloth, why is it such a big deal to wear it. I wear one all the time, don't even notice after a while. It's slightly inconvenient, but only trivially so. If we all do it it almost certainly saves a significant number of lives and misery, "evidence" or not. The explanations behind it make perfect sense. And it makes people feel safer as well. All good things, for a trivial inconvenience.

The debate reminds me of the debate about smoking.

For a long time, smoking "probably" caused cancer. Meaning, almost certainly. There was plenty of evidence.

But for a long time, cigarette companies said it wasn't "proven" that it caused cancer. Meaning, let's carry on selling, advertising, consuming it in large quantities.

It would take a few more decades to reach the standard of "proof".

So smoking continued, people died.

Rather than following rational life-optimising behaviour based on the growing body of data.

Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by tboyd47 on Friday September 25, 2020 @10:53AM (#24590442)
It may not bother you, but it makes some people very uncomfortable. Do you not think it's somewhat entitled and privileged to assume that your own standard of what's convenient and what's not convenient should be applied to everyone?

As you illustrated in your example, the medical establishment is often disastrously wrong, so why shouldn't we take their recommendations with a grain of salt?

Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by jlokier on Friday September 25, 2020 @11:16AM (#24590679)
It's uncomfortable for some people to not smack me in the mouth when they walk past me in the street.

They have to take a little care where they swing their arms.

In fact some people don't take that much care, and we usually say it is the people who physically dominate a space by being inconsiderate of others who are acting entitled and privileged.

So no, I don't think it's entitled or privileged to ask people to reduce significant[+] aggregate harm to others, at minor inconvenience to themselves.

However, I think it's entitled and privileged for people to decide that they don't have to wear a mask based on their "personal risk assessment for themselves", on the theory that other people can just quit their jobs or whatever and stay locked up at home to feel safe from the unmasked crowds outside. That's the "if people want to feel safe they can stay at home if they want" theory. That's not a reasonable imposition, and does not constitute the reasonable balance of needs that we'd call a free society.

For those for whom it's particularly uncomfortable, I don't know the policy elsewhere, but in the UK, it's permitted to not wear a mask if you have a reason for not wearing one. Reasons are quite reasonable: For example if you're with someone who lip reads, or they give you anxiety or whatever.

The goal is to ensure that almost all people wear one, not that every last person must wear one if they have a reasonable reason not to.

The reason for enforced policy is because too many people won't wear one at all without a stronger incentive. Just asking people to not harm others isn't enough, it seems. (And people really can't get their intuitions around exponential growth and clustering, so they mis-estimate aggregate risks to others by a lot, even when they have numbers to go on.)

[+] (It affects the R number. The difference between R > 1 and R < 1 is pandemic versus disease dying out. It's also the difference between a long pandemic with onerous economic and social consequences, and something that is manageable. The overall effect is profoundly significant in aggregate.)

Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by DanBC on Friday September 25, 2020 @10:37AM (#24590234)
Masks are often recommended as "source control" -- if an infected but asymptomatic person wears one they reduce the risk of spreading the illness to others. The bit that goes unsaid is "a good quality mask, such as a 12 to 16 layer DIY cotton mask, or a properly fitted N95, worn properly, with excellent hand hygiene when putting it on or taking it off".

The problem with that framing is that most people quickly drop the "asymptomatic" bit, and so now we have people with symptoms going shopping wearing a mask. That mask isn't going to do much to protect other people, especially when you consider it's likely to be 2 layers of cotton, poorly fitted, with poor hand hygiene.

Re:Belief in Conspiracy Theories Is a Barrier to Controlling... by SketchySeaBeast on Friday September 25, 2020 @10:40AM (#24590276)
But that's not an argument against masks at all. It's an issue with education, but I have no faith that taking away the masks would have those people who are making bad decisions somehow make better decisions.