Lower pay, longer hours, and technically, just as strong as the senior folks. In part because they don't know better, in part because they're looking to prove themselves, and in part because without a family they don't have much else to do on a weeknight. Speaking from my experience as a junior engineer, that is.

Speaking as a "senior" engineer today, I'm no better an engineer today than I was 10 years ago in terms of rote problem solving. What I provide as a senior engineer is if we're paddling across the lake, I'll keep us dry. Oh, and yeah, that'll cost you.

What I like about the article is they suggest the older folks have nothing to lose closer to retirement, and that makes them super valuable. I'd suggest that's true of the junior folks. It's the middling folks that have the most to lose, I suppose.

> technically, just as strong as the senior folks.

> Speaking as a "senior" engineer today, I'm no better an engineer today than I was 10 years ago in terms of rote problem solving. What I provide as a senior engineer is if we're paddling across the lake, I'll keep us dry.

This is an extremely narrow vision of the nature of engineering and engineers. It makes sense if the problems you're dealing with are whiteboard interview problems. Real world projects are much broader in nature and context.

At a very bare minimum, the experience on solving a broad spectrum of problems, and dealing with the related context, brings:

  - more solid solutions
  - simpler solutions
  - more fitting models
  - anticipation of dead ends
  - stability in the long term
  - etc. etc.

those are the things that popped into my mind in a few seconds.

I think there was talk, some time ago, on HN on this subject - if the only difference in 10 years of experience is "keeping dry across the lake", then one is a junior engineer with 10 year of experience, not a senior engineer (and/or somebody who doesn't see the difference).

Just to clarify I said "in terms of rote problem solving" which is what you referred to as "whiteboard interview problems." When I said "I'll keep us dry" I meant exactly the items you listed, with a particular focus on anticipating and avoiding problems and ensuring long-term stability over near-term thinking when appropriate.

That is what they meant by "I'll keep us dry."

> Speaking as a "senior" engineer today, I'm no better an engineer today than I was 10 years ago in terms of rote problem solving.

See I'm waaay better at it. Not in terms of raw problem solving ability, but because I've solved so many unique problems by now that I can start a new one half way through.

That and my skills are a lot more refined, so there are a lot of things I will do the right way out of habit which I would have had to discover through iteration 5-10 years ago.

If you're not better at what you do than you were 10 years ago, it makes me wonder what you've been doing with your time.

A good senior engineer makes sure that your app is still maintainable and scalable at the 1/2/5/10 year mark. If your never make it past the 1 year mark he or she will not provide any value.

If you're well funded (or if this is a new project in an existing company) I would make sure to allocate a reasonable portion of the budget for senior engineers or if I couldn't find any true senior engineers I would get the best motivated mediors and give them an enormous education budget.

I would go even further and say a senior engineer knows not just what to invest in, but what not to invest in. For instance, if you're solving zero-to-one problems, a senior engineer may caution you to avoid too much architecture and instead focus on development velocity at all costs. After all, what good is a well-crafted app in chapter 11?

A longer-term thinker will also have another idea about what can be considered "a well-crafted app" than somebody being interested to use one more hottest technology of the moment.

I'm not using "a senior engineer" because it's not a given that somebody has some expected perspective simply because of the title or the time worked or even the education they had.

Very true.

Yeh this exactly for a start-up and new projects you really do need experienced developers in the initial stages.

My first couple of agile projects where like this - you can also bring in external consultants to help with getting up to speed.

> Speaking as a "senior" engineer today, I'm no better an engineer today than I was 10 years ago in terms of rote problem solving.

I am, at almost 20 years in. I'm not only better at doing things well and safely, I can do them faster than ever because I know what's a solved problem and what's not, where to look for pre-existing solutions and how to apply them, what the pitfalls might be etc.

some young software people are very technically adept, but far from all are.

The younger developers are not out with friends going to the pub / cub on weeknights?

I'm not trying to be rude here but have you met the average developer?

When they go home they're just playing Fall Guys and rewatching Blade Runner, wishing Cyberpunk 2077 was out already.

>>When they go home they're just playing Fall Guys and rewatching Blade Runner, wishing Cyberpunk 2077 was out already.

I meet that description and reading this thread I was beginning to think I was much less motivated than my peers.

If "average developer" were a thing.

An average developer is easy to measure. He completes a man-month in one month on average.

I certainly drank my fair share haha, but it was often after working until 10pm. I'm referring more to the 4pm-10pm window you'd normally (I assume) be picking the kids up from school, making them dinner, berating them for not having completed their homework, and so on.

Why are you working till 10pm?

In my 20s, I was often doing that because I find programming inherently enjoyable. That it also pays extraordinarily well when done professionally is a convenient but unrelated fact.

Why would I pull an all-nighter playing a video game? Same reason except for the well-paid part.

That's what the weekend is for.

Yup. They're driven by dreams far more than responsibilities and that dreaded death timer. It makes me feel a bit old tbh.

You mean hack something out that doesn't actually work ?

Paying people even if it's below market is fine. We all have to start somewhere.