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Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by TeMPOraL on Friday September 18, 2020 @05:27AM (#24514710)
(This may be a good place for me to clear some misconceptions I have about farming; treat this comment as an application of Cunningham's Law.)

> The thing is that soil used for grazing cattle can’t be used for planting vegetables efficiently.

Not planting vegetables efficiently != not planting them at all, right? Could the lower yield on such fields still come ahead of lower energy efficiency of meat (in terms of energy expended per calorie of final human food produced)?

> So the effect would be to reduce the area of where we can produce food.

Surely we can grow something human-edible there. Or could perhaps this land become earmarked for construction, while equivalent amount of very fertile land could be switched from construction to farming? AFAIK there's plenty of settlements built on land that would be better used for farming.

> And if you would remove cattle you no longer have natural fertilizer.

Is industrialized agriculture even using natural fertilizer? I was under impression modern fertilizers are made in chemical plants and their production doesn't involve animal excrement.

Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by fetbaffe on Friday September 18, 2020 @05:53AM (#24514847)
If it is not efficient it will cost more than it yields, a loss. According to FAO 70% of worlds land surface is not suitable for planting crops.

Cattle can transform grass, that we can't eat, to protein that we need. It is actually a good thing, especially if you can't grow anything there.

In Sweden we have something called ecological farming, it is certification, to be approved for ecological farming you can't use mineral fertilizers anywhere in your food production.

Ecological products are usually somewhat more expensive in the store.

Now there are of course lots of farms that is not classified as ecological and they can use mineral fertilizers or natural fertilizers.

About a third of all fertilizers for farming used in Sweden is natural.

Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by TeMPOraL on Friday September 18, 2020 @06:02AM (#24514891)
Thank you for the answers!

> If it is not efficient it will cost more than it yields, a loss.

I was thinking about less efficient, but still profitable. I presume it's not a binary, and farms aren't operating barely above EROI of 1.

> According to FAO 70% of worlds land surface is not suitable for planting crops.

That's... super surprising to me. I would have expected something closer to 50-40%. Perhaps it hinges on the definition of "suitability"? I'll look into those stats.

> About a third of all fertilizers for farming used in Sweden is natural.

That's also surprising to me. Is this number so large because there are so many ecological farms in Sweden, or natural fertilizer is just so popular?

Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by fetbaffe on Friday September 18, 2020 @06:37AM (#24515071)
Sure, it is perhaps possible for planting crops in areas that is less suitable, I guess that the current economic system we have in the West makes that not feasible. That is why I'm in favor of tariffs on imported goods.

With more being produced within your country you can legislate higher requirements on production methods. And when food becomes more expensive to buy, the incentive to have high quality production increases.

In the west we no longer have the problem of food shortage, thus we can afford somewhat higher food prices. And of course if you produce more within your country, you can get better salaries.

Why Sweden uses that much natural fertilizer I can't really tell.

But I found something about high prices on synthetic (mineral or others like natural gas) fertilizers. This was something that started happening globally around 2008. Between September 2007 and September 2008 prices increased with 80 percent globally.

If you understand Swedish, 2008

https://www2.jordbruksverket.se/webdav/files/SJV/trycksaker/...