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Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by wvenable on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @05:01PM (#2444169)
Android is not an open collaborative project like the Linux kernel or many distributions. Android, is still, however open source in so much as that Google has released the source under a license that permits derivative works. It is however, not Free Software, as it is Apache licensed.

One needs to be careful not to mix terms. Android is "open source" but that's as far as they go. It's not Free Software and the development process is not collaborative.

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by micampe on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @05:38PM (#2444357)
> It is however, not Free Software, as it is Apache licensed

The FSF considers the Apache license to be free software (and GPLv3 compatible) http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by wvenable on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @05:51PM (#2444394)
You are right, FSF considers it a free software license but it's not a copyleft license. Google is not required to give out the code. It's compatible with the GPL because you can re-license Apache code under that license.
Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by cookiecaper on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @06:03PM (#2444432)
I find copyleft stipulations a bit overdone, personally. Software licensed under the Apache license can match Stallman's traditional definition of Free Software if the maintainer chooses to do so, and that's why it's considered a Free Software license. Even the GPL won't bring someone who doesn't care about free software into compliance; just take a glance at ffmpeg's Hall of Shame [1].

[1] http://ffmpeg.org/shame.html

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by micampe on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @05:58PM (#2444418)
I was only replying at your statement that Android is not free software: it is, by the letter of the law, even if it doesn't feel like it at all, in spirit.
Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by wvenable on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @06:04PM (#2444438)
I don't know if my reply came off as hostile, but I am thankful for your correction. I'm quite surprised that the FSF is so forgiving about what they consider a Free Software License. These sorts of Android "shenanigans" seems like exactly the sort of thing they don't like.
Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by angusgr on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @07:15PM (#2444656)
I don't see how GPL would make much difference to Android here.

Even if AOSP (Android Open Source Project) was GPL licensed, Google owns the copyright. Which means they can still make early releases to vendors (like Motorola for the Xoom) under a different license, and then make the public AOSP release under an OSS license later.

This is no different from Trolltech's former model with Qt, or the dozens of other free software libraries where the developer makes some extra money from non-GPL Licensing on the side.

The point is that Android 2.3 is Free Software, even if Android 3.0 is not Free Software yet. Google can't do anything to take back 2.3 now, it has freed it.

<Speculation> I'd be very surprised if Motorola got Android 3.0 for the Xoom under any OSS license. I imagine it would have been given to them under a special proprietary NDA-equipped license, or maybe even only licensed as a binary. </Speculation>

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by wvenable on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @07:33PM (#2444711)
> Even if AOSP (Android Open Source Project) was GPL licensed, Google owns the copyright.

Does Google own the copyright to contributed code? I assume the Android project contains patches from outside developers and they don't require copyright to be assigned to Google.

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by angusgr on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @07:57PM (#2444770)
That's a very good point, even besides the contributions there are some Apache licensed components in AOSP that Google have brought in themselves rather than had donated.

I guess in my hypothetical scenario, they could relicense them as GPL but then they'd have redistribution requirements via GPL virality - at least for those bits.

Or they'd need to restructure their parts of the project around them to avoid the viral aspect, like they have for the Linux kernel.

I guess my point is more that not every part of every Free Software project is always released to the public under that license. "Android 3.0 is not Free Software yet, but will be" is not that different to other common OSS project scenarios.

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by ZeroGravitas on Thursday April 14, 2011 @03:03AM (#2445939)
But if they were GPL only, it's much more likely they'd ask for assigned copyright, in order to achieve the same thing.

To be completely 110% "open" you'd GPL (or even AGPL) and not ask for assignment, which would level the playing field for everyone. But it's not common for business sponsored projects, or required to be Free Software. And again, even RMS accepts that there are strategic reasons to use non-copyleft licences for e.g. audio and video codecs as widespread adoption of proprietary alternatives would harm Free Software.

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by bad_user on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @06:42PM (#2444559)
I am surprised that people talk about open source / free software, without knowing what it means.

At the very least you should have your own coherent version of what "open" or "free" means for you, and that Android breaks, instead of putting "shenanigans" in quotes.

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by fluidcruft on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @06:18PM (#2444484)
The FSF does not consider the closed software modifications shipped by vendors to be free software. Android is essentially a free-software project with many closed-source forks. The typical Android end user is not running free software (except for the copyleft portions where the vendors have no choice).
Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by bad_user on Thursday April 14, 2011 @04:04AM (#2446020)

    The typical Android end user is not running 
    free software
This is a social problem -- what Open Source licenses do is to allow you to make forks in case you're unhappy with the way the project is being managed.

If that's not a reasonable advantage and you still depend on the goodwill of the parent company for future versions -- then you're basically saying that open-source / free-software licenses are useless.

Which is not true, as there are examples of famous forks available -- see XFree86 / Xorg; although forks don't happen so often because they take a lot of resources and energy, and there has to be enough incentive for a fork to survive.

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by fluidcruft on Thursday April 14, 2011 @09:58AM (#2446804)
While I agree in principle, you're perhaps glossing over the wave of handset TiVoization that is being championed by Motorola and now is spreading to HTC and others under the whitewash of "protecting the end-users". This prevents anyone except the manufacturer from updating or modifying even the most significant copyleft portions of Android (the kernel). Availability of free software is useless in that case. This is one of the "exploitable" weaknesses of GPLv2 that TiVo has pioneered and why GPLv3 was created. So, while yes, the Linux kernel on Motorola's recent phones is GPL free software, it's a moot point because you can't use anything except Motorola's blessed bits.
Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by bad_user on Thursday April 14, 2011 @10:47AM (#2447007)
I'm going to quote Linus Torvalds on this:

""" If you're a mad scientist, you can use GPLv2'd software for your evil plans to take over the world ("Sharks with lasers on their heads!!"), and the GPLv2 just says that you have to give source code back. And that's OK by me. I like sharks with lasers. I just want the mad scientists of the world to pay me back in kind ... [GPL.v3] crimps the style of mad scientists everywhere by also putting restrictions on the use of the source code. You cannot install it on your hardware (laser-equipped shark or otherwise) without also making sure that others can install another version """

Why do you assume that TiVo "exploited" a "weakness", when the software authors of prominent GPLv.2 projects (or other licenses that allow "tivoization") don't think that's the case?

What did TiVo did so awful to call it an exploit and market a derogative term after them, trashing their brand?

What "exploit" is there when you can make your own phones with Android's software on it?

If you, as a software author (working hard on your software) do not want YOUR software to be used in the way TiVo did, then GPL.v3 is fine and has its place in the world certainly, but other than that, what the hell are people smoking?

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by fluidcruft on Thursday April 14, 2011 @11:27AM (#2447171)
Linus Torvalds does not represent the FSF and was not involved in the drafting of GPLv2 (he was a complete nobody when GPLv2 was released). Torvalds is also not the only copyright holder to the Linux source. His opinion about what the FSF is trying to achieve through its licensing is immaterial. Combating the wave of machines you "own" but that you can't control, improve or specialize for your own purposes is exactly how the FSF came into existence. In the past manufacturers discouraged tinkerers simply by not releasing their code. The GPL countered this by requiring source code release. Then TiVo innovated use of trusted computing to prevent end user modifications even if you have access to the source. As a response GPLv3 now requires that you are able to actually use modifications. I don't know why you think the FSF's position is ambiguous. If they were happy with TiVo's abuse of their license, they would not have developed GPLv3. To claim that the FSF endorses the bullshit Motorola or TiVo imposes on its customers is ridiculous. TiVo earned the badge.
Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by bad_user on Thursday April 14, 2011 @12:03PM (#2447313)
The FSF does not represent Linus Tolvards and was not involved in developing the Linux kernel. The FSF is not the only or even the biggest contributor to the open-source pool of software. Their opinion about what the Linux kernel should disallow through its licensing is immaterial.

Also, Linus' opinion represents that of the majority of core kernel contributers. This can be checked, based on their mailing list, and based on the growing list of companies sponsoring its development.

   why you think the FSF's position is ambiguous
I do not think they are ambiguous. GPL.v3 is perfectly within their goals and they have been consistent. Their message is also clear and I admire RMS for what he has done.

My problem is with all the other people that suddenly discover the virtues of Free Software and consider it within their right to trash other people's work. Unfortunately being negative on the Internet is far too easy. Meritocracy doesn't work. The FSF has the right to bitch and moan about open-source versus free-software. Most other people do not.

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by fluidcruft on Thursday April 14, 2011 @01:08PM (#2447585)
I think you're confusing the GPL with free software. The GPL doesn't define what is considered free software, it's merely expression of the enumerated freedoms. What TiVo and Motorola do is incompatible with the freedoms (specifically, freedom 1). The fact that GPLv2 allowed the software to be used inappropriately was a licensing defect. Most manufacturers aren't customer-hating assholes. TiVo and Motorola are. I am a customer of both and I will continue to warn others about their bullshit. It's entirely within their own power to change this. The part about Torvald's opinion about TiVoization that you are neglecting is that he believes the market will punish this behavior. He does not glowingly endorse this behavior. He merely tolerates it.
Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by bad_user on Thursday April 14, 2011 @05:25PM (#2448531)
No, I was talking about TiVo, as a follow-up to your comment ... and your assertion that GPLv2 is flawed because it allowed for such usage.

All I'm saying -- it depends on who's perspective you're relying on, and since when talking about TiVo you're mostly talking about the Linux kernel, I gave it as a shining example of a project who's main founder disagrees.

    The part about Torvald ... he merely tolerates it
He has no reason to "endorse" it either. Tolerance is what we should all be striving for. IMHO, the free market rules work just fine, except when the market is not really free, by means of natural or government backed monopolies (like patents). Worked great for other industries.

That said I completely agree that Motorola are assholes.

But you cannot change their behavior, unless you're going to do it by means of healthy competition -- simply because if Android were to impose stricter rules on locking, Motorola wouldn't have joined the party, and I'm pretty sure they are still skeptical about their choice ;-)

Imagine if Android somehow becomes the standard, just as Windows, but for mobile phones. And that you can run your apps on every phone, and thus have no vendor lock-in (like people have with iOS for example) -- the truth of the matter is that software is much more bigger than hardware, and mobile phones themselves will be a complementary to software (just as PCs currently are).

In this instance do you think Motorola will afford to lose market share to smaller, more open manufacturers that will be dying to grab a chunk of the market by any means necessary?

Which it the reason they probably are trying to do lock-in now, when the market is unprepared for it -- you're witnessing a land-grab. Apple does it too -- the more they shove on their customer's necks, the more they'll have in the future when competition will be stronger.

The important part of this story is that other manufacturers will be able to join the game, and unless something is yet to unfold, this is precisely what Google wants, as it is in their best interest. Not only that but they are putting pressure on it by releasing unjailed devices like Nexus S.

Have some faith in humanity dude :-) Software is a relatively new field versus all the others.

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by bad_user on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @06:32PM (#2444532)
Even if the license would have been GPL, they wouldn't have been required to release the source-code immediately. The time it takes to release the source-code only has to be reasonable, not instant.
Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by nathanb on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @05:10PM (#2444206)
Little hard to be open source when your source is closed and you don't let anyone look at. Android source is released sometime after the product has been out to market. Android is only open to the extent that it benefits Google, not the extent that it benefits the community.

I'm not saying that this is the wrong way to go about it...were I a Google exec and responsible to shareholders, I would have difficulty justifying a truly open process. But at this point, "open" has become a bullet point on a product box to attract a certain demographic.

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by warfangle on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @05:27PM (#2444303)
You are confusing Open Source software and Free Software. Read the GP again.
Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by nathanb on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @05:41PM (#2444367)
Can Google plausibly claim to be OSI-compliant on Honeycomb when they have released the product without the source? I like to think that I understand the difference between the two, but I have difficulty seeing how "I'll show you the source at some point in the future, when it's convenient for me to do so" is in any meaningful way open source.
Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by wvenable on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @05:55PM (#2444411)
> Can Google plausibly claim to be OSI-compliant on Honeycomb when they have released the product without the source?

The GPL requires that sort of thing, most other open source licenses do not. The Apache license covers what you can do with the source when it has been given to you.

> I have difficulty seeing how "I'll show you the source at some point in the future, when it's convenient for me to do so" is in any meaningful way open source.

Microsoft could release the source code to Windows tomorrow but say you have no right to modify it or distribute the modifications. Just because you've been given the source doesn't mean it's open source. Furthermore, if you haven't been given the source, there isn't anything to say about it. In this case, you are not entitled to the source just because you have the binary.

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by bad_user on Thursday April 14, 2011 @04:22AM (#2446069)

    The GPL requires that sort of thing
It's a gray area.

If you accompany your binary release with a "written offer", you can actually postpone the source release. The GPL doesn't give a deadline either.

People are trying to make this a licensing issue, when it definitely it is not.

You can always fork Android, and Google cannot sue you for patent infringement (courtesy of the Apache license). The problem then is that the fish doesn't come free anymore -- which is the main gripe of people (i.e. the only valid concern I see for Android is that development is not done in the open).

As for the "users cannot do whatever they want with their devices" -- they can always buy alternative devices, or build their own devices (isn't that the purpose of Free Software anyway?). If openness is really what people need, open devices will win because it is a free market (the Nexus S is doing well in my country btw).

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by wvenable on Thursday April 14, 2011 @12:05PM (#2447318)
> People are trying to make this a licensing issue, when it definitely it is not.

I agree. In fact, that was my original argument.

> the only valid concern I see for Android is that development is not done in the open.

I don't actually care if the development is not done in the open. What I actually care about is being ability to modify and install alternative versions of the software on my devices. I have had to throw away a lot of perfectly good hardware because the software was old and outdated with no way to update it. I've also had to deal with bugs with no way to fix them. Of course, none of this is Google's problem because they don't make the hardware.

> they can always buy alternative devices, or build their own devices (isn't that the purpose of Free Software anyway?).

The purpose of Free Software to build hardware? I think you've got something wrong there. As a programmer, I don't build hardware. I build software.

> If openness is really what people need, open devices will win

No, because most people are not programmers (or highly technical) and therefore have no need or ability to run alternative software. So no, openness will not win out. This appeal to the masses is not a good argument.

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by bad_user on Thursday April 14, 2011 @02:32PM (#2447886)

    The purpose of Free Software to build hardware? 
No, you got it wrong. The purpose of Free Software is to escape from the monopolies created by proprietary software (i.e. only the parent company of such software can provide support and fix it for you); which is not the same with other products, like cars, for which you can always find a local repair-shop. So even if normal people are not developers or hardware builders, they can rely on local businesses that may be cheaper, while also helping the local community.

A valid point nonetheless. Search for any of RMS's talks and he'll bring this point up.

    No, because most people are not programmers
I've got dozens of non-programmers as friends. Many of them own iPhones. All of them know about jailbreaking, many of them did it -- some with net-tutorials, some by paying local smarty-pants that unlock phones for a living.
Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by wvenable on Thursday April 14, 2011 @03:26PM (#2448074)
> The purpose of Free Software is to escape from the monopolies created by proprietary software

Which is effectively impossible if the device running the software is locked down! Android, as Free Software, could be made effectively meaningless if I'm not able to tinker with that very software installed on my device. The FSF agrees, hence the GPL3. Telling me to make my own hardware, exactly what you said, doesn't help me at all.

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by wvenable on Thursday April 14, 2011 @03:21PM (#2448052)
Sadly, that still shows that open will not win out in the market. Your friends jailbreak, sure, but they're still buying the most proprietary locked down device out there. Ask any of those iPhone owners if they'd give up their iPhone if it was no longer ever possible to jailbreak it.
Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by andreyf on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @06:11PM (#2444458)
Android, is still, however open source in so much as that Google has released the source under a license that permits derivative works. It is however, not Free Software, as it is Apache licensed.

What definition of FS are you using? Could you clarify which of the four freedoms [0] Android infringes on?

0. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Re:Google admits Android 'both open and closed' by bad_user on Wednesday April 13, 2011 @06:46PM (#2444577)
I agree that Android development is not in the open; but there are select companies and individuals that participate in its development.

On the other hand, terms like "open source" and "free software" have absolutely nothing to do with the development process / collaboration model; they only have to do with end-user or redistribution licenses.

Also, the Apache license is stronger than GPL.v2 in the "free software" sense -- it's a lot easier to restrict GPL.v2 software redistribution by means of patents.

    One needs to be careful not to mix terms.
One sure does need to do that.