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Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by Popcorn_Butter on Sunday September 06, 2020 @09:31AM (#24391159)
How else would you stop a riot.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by ben_w on Sunday September 06, 2020 @09:55AM (#24391303)
The best way is to prevent them starting in the first place, and the methods for deescalating conflict will have to be used eventually in any case, because escalating rather than deescalating conflict leads to civil war, independence, or massacres.

Also relevant: protesters are starting to teach themselves how to deal with tear gas.

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by eanzenberg on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:18AM (#24391472)
What’s the best way to stop them from starting? What de-escalation methods are proven to work? Surely these would be in use already in far-left strongholds like Portland and Seattle.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by jrochkind1 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:49AM (#24391707)
> Surely these would be in use…

You're assuming the police actually WANT to de-escalate. They generally do not. (If you are suggesting the police in "far-left strongholds like Portland" behave or are motivated qualitatively differently than police in other cities... nope).

They want to scuffle, they want to punish people who have verbally antagonized or threatened them, or who they think deserve it; they want to protect challenges to their authority and maintain control of the situuation, or think they need to crack down hard to avoid a total social breakdown (the opposite of de-escalation) -- they have a variety of values and priorities, avoiding a "riot" is seldom one of them. ("Winning" the riot is).

Here in Baltimore, the last few months of protest had very little property destruction or scuffling. Some here wanted to credit the restraint or intentions of "proestors" -- I think it's far more likely that the police administrators this time, somehow, got the forces in the street to actually avoid escalation.

I am a middle-aged leftist who has been at many many protests. Every "riot" I have been near was initiated by escalation by police, including chemical weapons use, agitating the crowd to respond, bringing more response in turn. If the police avoid escalation, it doesn't happen. This isn't always what the leftist radicals want to admit either -- they may want to think it's "the people" who are in control of things, who are angry enough to rise up or something. In fact, it's the folks who are trained to act together, with the better weapons and the (usually) disciplined command and control structure, who have pre-existing relationships of working together as a team -- who largely determine whether to escalate or de-escalate -- and this isn't that surprising.

The police usually don't actually want to de-escalate, they want to knock heads. By "the police" I mean both the "white shirts" and the "blue shirts". Sometimes the decision-makers might have preferred not to escalate, but literally would not be able to control those they ostensibly control though; the police are there for a fight.

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by bananaface on Monday September 07, 2020 @04:18AM (#24397593)
I think you're way off the mark to be honest. Riot police broadly follow orders, they aren't acting on their own to any significant degree to begin with, let alone enough to express these motivations. I'm with you that riot cops tend to be thugs, but... So are rioters.

I don't think the riots were the result of police escalation, that strikes me as an attempt to sell snow to eskimos. I think they were the result of people realising they could get away with it, which is why they stopped when the national guard stepped in. People aren't torching car dealerships and looting flat screen TVs from Walmart because of the police, they're doing it because it's fun.

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by jrochkind1 on Monday September 07, 2020 @11:12AM (#24399949)
I dunno what I have seen and what matches the experience of most other people I know who have been there, is some parts of the crowd do SOMETHING illegal or 'inappropriate', sure, the cops respond with force or chemical weapons, which escalates the situation by angering/triggering the crowd to be more aggressive towards the police, rinse repeat.

I am not denying some kind of provocation from the crowd. What we're talking about is if the police respond with escalation or de-escalation. Separate from an issue of "fault", just an objective observation of what happens.

I'm not talking about whole-scale insubordination from the police. I'm saying individual cops and unit-leaders have discretion of when to respond with what force -- like cops do generally.

I think one reason the national guard makes a difference is because they have very different training, risk-tolerance, different ingrained norms about when it's appropriate to use force against civilians. Military is trained to try to avoid using force against civilians; police not so much because that's literally their job. We are seeing lately how often the police respond to any perceived risk with overwhelming force -- that is what they are trained to do. National guard, when facing civilians, are trained to use it as a last resort, police seem trained (whether explicitly or implicitly) to use it as a first resort, at least when dealing with certain populations (protestors, poor people) where traditionally mainstream society sees them as "dangerous". Honestly, I think the national guard is a lot more likely to respond to "provocation" from civilians with de-escalation or just holding ground; the police much more likely to respond by escalation, some form of violence against the crowd in general, in a way that brings an escalated reaction.

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by eanzenberg on Sunday September 06, 2020 @11:08AM (#24391837)
On the other hand, Kenosha riots fizzled when the national guard came in.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by jcranmer on Sunday September 06, 2020 @11:16AM (#24391906)
Shockingly, military units are better trained than police units. Especially in the realm of not using force.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by Robotbeat on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:29AM (#24391554)
Riot “control” agents often are used to escalate conflict. This must be acknowledged.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by giancarlostoro on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:42AM (#24391653)
[Citation needed]
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by ben_w on Sunday September 06, 2020 @12:59PM (#24392748)
> in far-left strongholds like Portland and Seattle.

1. Left-right is a completely different axis to authoritarian-liberty. I’ve known both an anarcho-communist and an anarcho-capitalist.

2. The idea that the US Democrat party is “far-left” is hilarious from here in Europe.

> What’s the best way to stop them from starting? What de-escalation methods are proven to work?

The ELI5 answer is “political competence”. These are things that would take at least a degree module to understand fully, not a comment thread.

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by pmoriarty on Sunday September 06, 2020 @05:52PM (#24394958)
"The idea that the US Democrat party is “far-left” is hilarious from here in Europe."

Just to add to this:

Right-wingers who fantasize about Seattle or Portland being "far-left" really need to visit and see that capitalism is alive and well there (thriving, actually), private property has not been abolished, the workers don't own the means of production, and massive socioeconomic inequality still exists.

None of these would be true if Seattle or Portland were really "far-left".

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by eanzenberg on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:06PM (#24396104)
What societies today have workers own the means of production, or where private property is abolished? N Korea? Venezuela? Cuba? Seems pretty strawman
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by wongarsu on Sunday September 06, 2020 @09:40AM (#24391209)
Water cannons (basically tanker trucks purpose built to deal with protesters and rioters) [1].

They can still cause significant injuries when abused, but they are far more humane than teargas and rubber bullets.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cannon

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by chrisseaton on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:33AM (#24391581)
I’d rather get teargassed than take a hit from a water cannon. Teargas wears off in a couple of minutes. A water cannon to the face will blind you.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by eat_veggies on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:43AM (#24391669)
To add to that, getting attacked using a water cannon during freezing weather, like during the Dakota Pipeline protests, will literally give you hypothermia [0] even if it doesn't blind or maim you. Not to mention that the cops used a combination of tear gas, baton rounds, and water cannons during that protest.

[0] https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/dakota-pipeline-protests/d...

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by wongarsu on Sunday September 06, 2020 @11:21AM (#24391958)
You're not supposed to hit people in the face with full blast at short distance. That's why these things have multiple settings. The high pressure tight beam is meant for large distance.

Tear gas has a similar problem: a tear gas cartridge in the face may blind you (or worse). Wikipedia says "As with all non-lethal or less-lethal weapons, there is some risk of serious permanent injury or death when tear gas is used. This includes risks from being hit by tear gas cartridges that may cause severe bruising, loss of eyesight, or skull fracture, resulting in immediate death. A case of serious vascular injury from tear gas shells has also been reported from Iran, with high rates of associated nerve injury (44%) and amputation (17%), as well as instances of head injuries in young people." [1]

1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tear_gas

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by eat_veggies on Sunday September 06, 2020 @11:26AM (#24391994)
You're also not supposed to shoot baton rounds ("rubber bullets") directly at people's heads. This does nothing to stop police from shooting people in the head. It seems a common problem with all of these non-lethal weapons is that they are actually lethal in the hands of a cop.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by Zigurd on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:42AM (#24391657)
There are several answers better than gassing one's own citizens. The bottom line is, taking this form of riot control away from governments is a net benefit:

1. Don't have a despotic government. If you have a despot, like in Belarus, that despot should not have access to these weapons.

2. Don't kill people in the course of law enforcement. This happens far too frequently in some places. Police that do this should not have chemical weapons.

3. How many recent riots are down to other causes? How many recent uses of teargas are legitimate and necessary? If there is no legitimate need for teargas, get rid of it.

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by jrochkind1 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:42AM (#24391652)
The police have started far more riots with chemical weapons than they have stopped. Most things resembling riots are in fact started by police escalation and aggressiveness, including chemical weapons use. Yeah, there are various studies and reports showing this, it's also the general experience of most who have been present.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by chance_state on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:54AM (#24391738)
Did you reply to the wrong comment?
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by jrochkind1 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:57AM (#24391754)
I don't think so? "Why can't we stop the police from using chemical weapons too?" => "How else would you stop a riot?" => I say: "in fact, police use of chemical weapons have started far more riots than they have stopped".
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by capableweb on Sunday September 06, 2020 @09:42AM (#24391221)
Fix the underlying issues that makes people riot.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by dasudasu on Sunday September 06, 2020 @11:41AM (#24392096)
I think it's pretty apparent to anyone not on the left that this is the exact line of thinking that led to the homelessness crises in liberal enclaves. Just tolerate a problem and claim it's society's fault, while also not doing anything about it.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by cglace on Sunday September 06, 2020 @09:45AM (#24391244)
Because systemic issues can be fixed overnight.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by eat_veggies on Sunday September 06, 2020 @09:53AM (#24391298)
They can't be fixed overnight, but they certainly can't be fixed by doubling down on police brutality.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by readarticle on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:25AM (#24391528)
Meanwhile, the riot riots.

Tear gas won’t manage gentrification and economic inequality, and overarching societal reform won’t manage a riot in progress.

Right tools for the job and all that...

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by eat_veggies on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:35AM (#24391596)
You say this with such certainty, but empirically we have seen that protests turn violent once police start escalating and attacking them, and turn peaceful again after the cops leave [0][1][2][3][4][5]. So no, it's not the right tool for the job. The protests have continued precisely because the government has not showed a single sign of even beginning efforts toward overarching societal reform.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/31/portland-pr...

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/2/21278285/peaceful-protest-...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/26/opinion/blm-p...

[3] https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/19/opinions/aggressive-police-pe...

[4] https://www.vox.com/2020/6/12/21279619/protesters-police-vio...

[5] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/police-keep-using-fo...

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by readarticle on Sunday September 06, 2020 @02:23PM (#24393464)
Empirically from those same links, tear gas as a “riot” control agent works.

It’s impossible not to see an obvious strategy of police provocation, hilariously on display in [2], but tear gas as a tactic to disperse groups of people can’t seriously be argued not to work, as shown in that very same [2].

[0]: “...the protests largely ended the same way for days: with tear gas, rubber bullets and arrests.”

[1]: “The vast majority of people began to disband, while some stayed behind to continue protesting.”

[2]: “Minutes later, the march ended in chaos as the police lobbed flash-bang grenades and sprayed the protesters with tear gas and pepper spray.”

[3]: focused on strategy

[4]: ‘officers have met peaceful protesters...with disproportionate and brutal force, often for no reason but to “disperse” a crowd.’

[5]: focused on effects of tactics

The people being dispersed won’t always be peacefully protesting injustice, and the police themselves won’t always be the subject at hand.

I also specifically mentioned it as a tool for managing a riot in progress, not provoking the current protests occurring across the US.

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by giancarlostoro on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:46AM (#24391691)
And yet parts of the government with abilities to act locally (where protests occur) allow the rioting instead of doing anything useful. When the politicians show up they get attacked. There is plenty wrong on either side but burning down your own city and destroying local businesses is not going to help anybody.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by eat_veggies on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:52AM (#24391723)
When a politician, singular, showed up, he got attacked [by protestors] in Wisconsin. Of course, most of the violence and threats toward politicians at protests has been at the hands of police [0][1][2]

[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2020/06/03/all-t...

[1] https://www.newsweek.com/nypd-sergeants-benevolent-associati...

[2] https://www.thedailybeast.com/norman-oklahoma-councilwoman-a...

Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by giancarlostoro on Sunday September 06, 2020 @11:25AM (#24391991)
You seem to have forgotten about Rand Paul being attacked as well. Then theres the teenager getting into a battle with three criminals (or so they allege) at least one of which was holding a gun they had no right to own. What was the Police's hand in that situation that caused grown adults to attack a teenager?
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by eat_veggies on Sunday September 06, 2020 @11:36AM (#24392064)
Apologies. I forgot about Rand Paul because in all the videos of the incident, he appears unharmed. To him, violence is being surrounded by his constituents.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by giancarlostoro on Sunday September 06, 2020 @12:36PM (#24392551)
I'm sure they would of left him unharmed if he had no police escorting him.
Re:We want to live in a world free of chemical weapons by 082349872349872 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @11:39AM (#24392081)
US Military thoughts on handling civil disturbance: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23616564 (plus FEMA)