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Re:Notes from a Flat Earth Conference by baddox on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:34PM (#24225986)
> That's the whole point: some people value purpose more than they value explanation.

Sure, but I don't think the debate is over whether creationists derive a sense of purpose from their beliefs. I have no doubt that they do. You'd never need to discuss things like fossils or evolution or cosmology to determine whether one derives a sense of purpose from one's beliefs.

My assumption was that these debates are about the epistemological status of these claims, which is largely independent of whether one derives a sense of purpose.

Re:Notes from a Flat Earth Conference by lisper on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:41PM (#24226064)
Yes, you're right. But by the time you get around to arguing about fossils your thought processes have already diverged beyond reconciliation. It's not because either of you are idiots, it's because you started from different foundational assumptions.
Re:Notes from a Flat Earth Conference by baddox on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:46PM (#24226141)
That may very well be true, but making arguments that conceal your true world view or "axioms" is intellectually dishonest.
Re:Notes from a Flat Earth Conference by lisper on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:52PM (#24226217)
I've never encountered a YEC who concealed their foundational belief in the inerrancy of the Bible. In fact, if you watch Kent Hovind, he opens every single video he makes with, "I believe that the Bible is true and scientifically accurate." If you're going to lob charges of intellectual dishonesty you should be very careful that you're not living in a glass house.
Re:Notes from a Flat Earth Conference by baddox on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:06PM (#24226398)
> In fact, if you watch Kent Hovind, he opens every single video he makes with, "I believe that the Bible is true and scientifically accurate."

If you're spending lots of effort making what appear to be good-faith arguments toward some conclusion, but that conclusion is in fact an axiom that you hold, then that's intellectually dishonest. If "Bible is true and scientifically accurate" is one of your axioms, then it's intellectually dishonest to provide some supposed piece of evidence that supports this claim (e.g. supposed missing links in the fossil record), because by definition 1) no evidence is necessary to support an axiomatic claim and 2) no evidence or explanation can possibly change your mind.

Re:Notes from a Flat Earth Conference by lisper on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:25PM (#24226649)
The axiom is that the Bible is true. The conclusion is that evolution is false. The arguments are about how to reconcile the "fact" that evolution is false with the existence of data that appear at first glance to support its truth.

Now, I am not going to defend Kent Hovind's intellectual honesty. I think he does have a not-so-hidden ulterior motive (tax evasion). But you cannot legitimately accuse him -- or any YEC that I've encountered -- of trying to paper over the fact that he assumes the truth of the Bible.

Re:Notes from a Flat Earth Conference by baddox on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:32PM (#24226763)
> The axiom is that the Bible is true. The conclusion is that evolution is false. The arguments are about how to reconcile the "fact" that evolution is false with the existence of data that appear at first glance to support its truth.

But there is no intellectually honest way to reconcile that factual claim except to reiterate that it is an axiom (or, if you like, a trivial corollary from the axiom that the Bible is true). The supposed existence of missing links is completely irrelevant, because even if those links weren't missing, his conclusion would be that evolution is false. Ancient flood myths are completely irrelevant, because even if such myths weren't widespread, his conclusion would be that evolution is false.

To clarify, I'm not claiming that creationists conceal their beliefs about the Bible. I'm referring to intellectual dishonesty.