News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by hindsightbias on Monday August 10, 2020 @11:25AM (#24110283)
It is interesting that people don't think on these scales. What percentage of the HN crowd has developed something that has had (or will have) a 10, 20 or 40 year life span?

Because I've seen a bit of that and it's what makes the world go round. There's certainly a lot of bad/crazy stuff out there but wonder if the ephemeral fashions of today will stand the tests of time.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by 51Cards on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:44PM (#24113231)
I wrote a piece of software that still handles all engineering project management for one of the larger communications companies in North America (>2.5 million customers). I developed it in 1997 and it is still in place today, chugging away for ~400 daily users and getting minor updates a couple times a year. I didn't remotely think it would last on this timescale and I have paid the price for some poor design decisions many times over. Still, as much as I cringe at some of the older sections of code, it has been nice to see it keep going.

The client has started internal projects to replace it 3x over and each has been cancelled; sum total spent on the cancelled projects easily exceeds what I charged by an order of magnitude. In retrospect I didn't charge nearly enough back then! If only I could have used a SAAS model.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by ISL on Monday August 10, 2020 @11:36AM (#24110408)
The best-practices we teach our experimental physics students, whether they know it or not, are generally designed to yield experimental apparatus that can last a decade or more with minimal maintenance.

After you've lived through it, a decade is a very short span of time. If you don't have to think about whether or not something is going to break, you have more free cycles to think about something else that needs doing.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by RhysU on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @09:07AM (#24119880)
Do you have any materials that you can share about these practices?
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by lowdose on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:59PM (#24113370)
But how would you place that on range between a Sovjet solution and a homemade Minimal Viable Product?
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by jermaustin1 on Monday August 10, 2020 @12:37PM (#24111120)
I'm in my 30s, I've been a primarily web developer for 15 years, and I know there is software I wrote in 2008 that is still running today for processing the rent of 1000s of residents. It has been updated a few times, adding a console argument to automate the process more. It was originally a Bob-O-Matic process. At midnight on the first of the month, this old-timer Bob would launch the application, click one button to load the residents, double check the numbers, click another the button to pull the rent statements, check those numbers, and then click a third button to process the transactions which actually took about an hour to run through, and on occasion would actually crash once a year or so, but it had the ability to pick back up after a crash where it left off.

That was probably my first real bit of production code, it (un)fortunately replaced half a floor of people with one man, who faithfully clicked those buttons every first midnight for the next 10 years before he retired. It was then automated by the couple of South African contractors that replaced the NYC-based app development team.

The company spent about 12 years automating away almost every job except management.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by bserge on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:55PM (#24113335)
Sounds like a nice, no-frills tool that does its job!
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by jermaustin1 on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:05PM (#24113419)
It was meant to be a temporary solution until the online payments module was developed by the vendor. Yet, here we are in 2020 and that module still hasn't been delivered. And no one who worked there initially is even around any longer.

If I'm not mistaken, we even gave them our code back in 2009 or 2010.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by bserge on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:08PM (#24113446)
"A good temporary fix will become a permanent solution" :D
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by james_s_tayler on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:58PM (#24115113)
Software Engineering Life Pro Tip:

s/for now/forever

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by Osiris on Monday August 10, 2020 @12:50PM (#24111287)
I built a relatively simple system over 10 years ago that ran on PHP and MySQL. Over the years, the company I built the product for has come back to me to upgrade PHP and MySQL after a security scan. The problem is the software was build for PHP 5.4, and they want it running on the latest (7.4). It doesn't.

I managed to get it running on the latest security release of 7.1 with a few days of work (I had to make code changes in the framework I used that weren't supported in PHP 7 anymore). If they want future security upgrades, it's going to require a even more significant rewrite of the software because it relies on old PHP behaviours that have been removed in recent releases.

So, I completely understand why 20 year old systems would still rely on floppy disks.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by jacquesm on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:57PM (#24113898)
I charge my proofreaders a euro every time they miss 'built' spelled as 'built'. It's been a pretty steady money maker, that one. I make a ton of spelling errors as well so who am I to cast that particular stone but the built-with-a-t one seems particular hard to get rid of even when you know about it.

Must be some cognitive blind spot.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by robocat on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:09PM (#24114614)
> 'built' spelled as 'built'

Did autocorrect “fix” your intentional misspelling for you?

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by nix23 on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @05:06AM (#24118544)
>Must be some cognitive blind spot.

Hehe, yeah for the better or the worst ;)

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by arethuza on Monday August 10, 2020 @11:37AM (#24110419)
I have built applications that have been around for 10 to 15 years.

The only thing that would have been good is to know in advance which ones will last that long - one was a temporary proof of concept!

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by bArray on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:36PM (#24113155)
Some code I wrote in a drunken haze has been running continuously for 7 years with zero downtime - it was only meant to be temporary!

It has zero comments, the code was inefficient, the variable names are things like "theThing" (it's the best I could do at the time) and "database" is just a series of text files carefully read/written to on the disk.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by smoe on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:47PM (#24113256)
In my first job we did project/information management systems. Initially for civil engineering projects, later more generally for governments and enterprises.

In some cases we had to have contingency plans for the software and data in case the company goes out of business within the coming 15 years.

Next I worked in advertisement, where clients spent similar sums as the above for cross media campaigns lasting maybe 14 days

That was quite the interesting contrast work wise :)

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by virtue3 on Monday August 10, 2020 @12:09PM (#24110759)
The jerks always say that it will be 'temporary' and we can redo it later. HAH
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by lozaning on Monday August 10, 2020 @05:42PM (#24114339)
We never have the money to do it right the first time, instead we always find the money to do it a second time.
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday August 10, 2020 @01:37PM (#24111835)
This is why at my last job we had a rule that said prototypes could not be shipped as production software. It had to be either completely rewritten, or at least completely code reviewed and the "bad" parts rewritten.
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by sterlind on Monday August 10, 2020 @01:55PM (#24112032)
I approach this by writing exploratory prototypes with good modular boundaries, but stub/hacky implementations. Keeping it simple lets me throw modules away as I refactor, until everything's been rewritten and then I ship it.
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:16PM (#24113519)
Sure, and that works great for a personal approach to code. But when your lifecycle from requirements through release needs to be validated, something more scalable is required. Sometimes that scalable thing is "anyone shipping prototype code will be fired."
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by bserge on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:57PM (#24113353)
It seems like no matter the industry, a (good) temporary fix becomes a permanent solution.
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday August 10, 2020 @01:05PM (#24111489)
Like the parent poster, I've shipped systems that have to be in production and supported for 20+ years, so this isn't surprising.

That said, most of my career has been in embedded systems, so this kind of lifetime isn't really unusual.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by ardy42 on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:17PM (#24113532)
> It is interesting that people don't think on these scales. What percentage of the HN crowd has developed something that has had (or will have) a 10, 20 or 40 year life span?

> Because I've seen a bit of that and it's what makes the world go round. There's certainly a lot of bad/crazy stuff out there but wonder if the ephemeral fashions of today will stand the tests of time.

Not many, I'd wager. I've even seem a few people argue here (IIRC) that backwards compatibility is an antipattern, which is the thing that allows systems to function on scales longer than an ephemeral fashion.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by user5994461 on Monday August 10, 2020 @05:53PM (#24114449)
>>> What percentage of the HN crowd has developed something that has had (or will have) a 10, 20 or 40 year life span?

Did that a lot when I was working at a major US bank (JP Morgan). All the critical software I worked on was planned for 10-20 years in my mind. Some of the work was upgrading/rewriting ancient things that have been there for 15 years, sometimes mostly untouched. Wrote some blog posts about it.

The most remarkable legacy system I have seen : That one was 13 years old, upgraded and half rewritten with bug to bug compatibility, 99% sure it will still be there in 13 years. https://thehftguy.com/2020/07/09/the-most-remarkable-legacy-...

Retired the last Perl software in the bank, rewrote in python and made sure it works on 2.6 and 2.7 and 3.7 to cover the upcoming decade. That software was handling in the order of a trillion dollars per day, wouldn't be surprised if it's still there in 30 years. https://thehftguy.com/2020/06/26/are-banks-still-using-perl-...

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by Izkata on Monday August 10, 2020 @12:13PM (#24110811)
> What percentage of the HN crowd has developed something that has had (or will have) a 10, 20 or 40 year life span?

I'm also curious about the work/personal split here. I have a small handful of things at home I first wrote around 10-12 years ago that I still use and tweak, but have only been working professionally for about 9 years (and have worked on things in that time I personally fully expect to hit 20-30 years).

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by dopamean on Monday August 10, 2020 @11:40AM (#24110447)
Whatever the average age of the HN crowd is would probably inform a little. I'm 34 and have been a dev for about 8 years. The only code from a past job that I know for a fact is still in use today is something that I wrote in early 2017 (a let's encrypt integration for a web host). So about three years. I'm very curious to know how it has been updated since but I'm no longer at that job.
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by detaro on Monday August 10, 2020 @11:44AM (#24110491)
Not a single comment in this comment section seems surprised by this - so probably a large percentage.
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by owenmarshall on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:58PM (#24113365)
Self selection bias surely doesn't apply to software developers.
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by detaro on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @05:05AM (#24118538)
True of course. I just found the contrast between "people don't think in those scales" and the comment section interesting - and generally think that a surprising amount of code survives for a decade or more.
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by gbuk2013 on Monday August 10, 2020 @12:52PM (#24111311)
I built an invoicing / international shipment documentation generation / stock control / production tracking system with Excel and VBA and it's been in production for close to 20 years! I am conflicted as to whether or not I should be proud of that. ;)
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by iso1210 on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:51PM (#24113831)
I have stuff I wrote 15 years ago still in daily use from 500+ people to produce news which is seen by tens (hundreds?) of millions of people, last serious development on it was 2012, written in perl of course. Another system a colleague wrote from the same time, written in PHP, looks after image archives. I don't believe that's changed much either.

There's a lot of infrastructure stuff that dates back 12 years, when we standardised the entire place on ubuntu (804) for linux (and got rid of solaris at the same time).

That's all fairly new though. A lot of broadcast equipment still in use store config on 3.5" floppy disks, and I saw a windows 3.1 machine still running in a branch office about 18 months ago.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by JAlexoid on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @12:53PM (#24122517)
It's not ephemeral - when you think about upgrade cycles and deprecation of tech.

What I would claim - is that people who targeted Win95 for equipment that had to last decades never bothered to understand how software ecosystem works. They just "threw it together"...

That said - the floppy disks isn't that bad, per se. I would have expected Boeing to be smart enough to expose a data loading interface, that can read something "as if it was a floppy disk"... But then I look af 737 and Boeing's failure to deliver a crew space launch vehicle - and get reminded that they only exist because US government literally props it up.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by WalterBright on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:14PM (#24113501)
> What percentage of the HN crowd has developed something that has had (or will have) a 10, 20 or 40 year life span?

The backend of the dmd D compiler was originally developed in 1983. Of course, it's been through a lot of dramatic changes.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by bArray on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:44PM (#24113235)
A slightly different spin has been working on some 20+ year old C/C++ code that is relatively nicely written, such that you can still expand on it today.

I had a lot of joy recently reading the Voyager 1 image decompression routines and some X11 window manager sources.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by pyuser583 on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @01:09AM (#24117339)
I used to work for a manufacturers that had industrial equipment that was 15 years old. We had 15 year old PCs to talk to it. That was about 20 years ago. From what I hear, they’re using the same equipment, and same PCs.
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by WWLink on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @02:02AM (#24117561)
35 years means they must be using 286s to run that stuff. On the plus side, nothing requires fans, the motherboards are extremely simple (albeit a mess of logic chips), and your biggest worry is probably the power supply. Right?

I dunno. I could easily see taking decently made hardware to the 20 year mark.

Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by temac on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:46PM (#24115581)
I once worked on a project that made me think that year 2038 will be interesting for the military.
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by chopin on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @10:44AM (#24120764)
I've written PLC code in the 90's which still runs today.
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by jacquesm on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:55PM (#24113877)
Some stuff I wrote in the 80's is still up and running.
Re:Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks by knodi on Monday August 10, 2020 @11:34AM (#24110385)
Yes, because most people on HN's context is shipping nodejs code.