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Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by BeetleB on Monday August 10, 2020 @01:19AM (#24105820)
> You write a tool for let's say recognizing faces. Will it be used for login onto computer? Tracking dissidents? IDing corpses? Who knows.

I mentioned this in another comment, but I'll say it again:

Irrespective of any legal/ethical concerns, yes, I would like to know! If my boss just came to me and said "build a facial recognition system" I certainly will ask how it is going to be used. Not because I care about ethics, but it's a basic aspect of the job. You can replace "facial recognition" with "CMS" and I'd still ask.

If they tell me the facial recognition is for logging into computers, and then later decide to use it to track dissidents, that is a different concern. But I'll at least ask!

> What if you start as something 100% ethical. But your company pivots to unethical application?

If they pivot after my work is done, I won't feel responsible. If they never used it for the original application and pivoted to this, I may get upset and quit, but my conscience would be clear.

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by Ygg2 on Monday August 10, 2020 @05:46AM (#24107349)
> If they pivot after my work is done, I won't feel responsible.

So if you invented dynamite you wouldn't feel responsible for its use?

But, let's change it a bit more personal. You write an awesome OSS yaml parser. It's so good, that GFW of China uses it as a main component, and this gets published in the news.

What would you do? Nothing you did changed, but suddenly your work is powering an unethical component.

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by Nasrudith on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:03AM (#24107454)
Dynamite is a good example of why the philosophy is complete bullshit. How about you blame the stupid evil fuckers who started all of the futile wars to try to get rich in the quagmire that was European geopolitics instead of tbe person who made them safer?

It is the same sort of stupid blame shifting involved with the hippocratic oath for x nonsense. Oaths are majorly outmoded in the zeitgeist anyway because everyone recognizes lies are commonplace.

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by Ygg2 on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:25AM (#24107569)
> How about you blame the stupid evil fuckers who started all of the futile wars

And I fully agree. Expecting people to individually bear the burden of "some oath", is a fool's errand.

My point was software on its own, much like a fridge, is amoral. You can use it to store your groceries, or you can use it to store corpses.

That said, there are some extreme cases (like a gun), that have very limited non-violent uses. And IMO, that should be regulated, instead of depending on people Doing The Right Thing™.

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by BeetleB on Monday August 10, 2020 @01:59PM (#24112085)
> So if you invented dynamite you wouldn't feel responsible for its use?

I would if I were inventing dynamite, but that's not what this scenario is.

A person working for a knife manufacturer need not worry about it being used for murder, as that's not what the primary use. And facial recognition is a lot less harmful than even that.

Trust me: I work for a company that produces certain goods used for all kinds of good and nefarious purposes depending on who buys it. My conscience is clear.

> But, let's change it a bit more personal. You write an awesome OSS yaml parser. It's so good, that GFW of China uses it as a main component, and this gets published in the news.

> What would you do? Nothing you did changed, but suddenly your work is powering an unethical component.

I wouldn't do anything:

1. This is milder than the knife scenario above. Of course I don't care if people use it in a poor way - unless there is a straightforward technical mitigation I could do. In your example, given that the source code is available, that is not an option.

2. There's a certain hypocrisy in releasing something as open source and then complaining about how it is used. If it bothers you, then modify your license!

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by Ygg2 on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:11PM (#24114631)
> I would if I were inventing dynamite

> I wouldn't do anything:

That's hypocritical. Nobel didn't invent dynamite because he wanted people to blow themselves up. He invented dynamite because nitro-glycerin was a horrid mess used in mining.

He definitely didn't have an easy technical solution to problem of people misusing dynamite.

You can either say in both case do nothing, or in both case do something.

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by BeetleB on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:32PM (#24115458)
> You can either say in both case do nothing, or in both case do something.

If I lived in a world lacking in nuance, I would agree. I do not live in that world.

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by imtringued on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:36AM (#24108137)
Why would your boss tell you about the unethical ways he is going to use software you have written?
Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by TeaDrunk on Monday August 10, 2020 @08:28AM (#24108516)
Right now your boss has no reason not to tell you- people at GitHub knew their software was being used to support ICE during the time in which families are being separated. People at Microsoft knew that Microsoft was having contracts with the military. Google engineers knew about Project Dragonfly.

Right now bosses don’t even have incentive to lie about it because no engineer is obligated to give a shit about the society they live in broadly.

Re:Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Softw... by strken on Monday August 10, 2020 @08:57AM (#24108746)
This is a good time to point out that a significant chunk of the population isn't opposed to working for the military, for ICE, or for defence contractors who make weapons; they don't view that work as unethical. Moreover, the origin of Silicon Valley, and indeed the entire internet, is DARPA contracts and weapons manufacturing.

Any oath would either not be taken by those people, would be watered down so far as to be meaningless, or would require the entire industry to refuse to make weaponry. The first and second are ineffective and the third is ludicrous.