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Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by zpeti on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:06AM (#24059393)
Maybe just because a population has a particular makeup in terms of percent of minorities and genders doesn't mean that exact make up will be represented at every grouping in society. Just like the NBA doesn't represent the USAs actual makeup in class, race, gender, either. Did they inherit discrimination or just replicate it? Or is this a stupid question to begin with?

So unless you want to actively go out and discriminate positively and force certain hirings and situations, you aren't going to be living in some theoretical utopia. Maybe silicon valley just hired who it thought was best 20 years ago, rather than based on some inclusivity quota. And therefore it ended up as it did. Not because it was malicious or discriminative, or evil, it just happened that way.

You might think that is evil, but that is more of a political point and an opinion than fact.

Sigh... rant over, queue the downvotes, this is HN after all.

Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by lnanek2 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:23AM (#24059521)
> Maybe silicon valley just hired who it thought was best 20 years ago ... > Not because it was malicious or discriminative, or evil, it just happened

Doesn't seem like a valid hypothesis. Programming computers was originally predominantly done by women, remember, so why is SV mostly white guys? We've already seen both genders can do the work. I've worked with lots of women at hackathons and know some who went through coding camps and landed software engineering jobs at places like Etsy, so know they aren't excluded because they "can't do the job best" like you imply.

If some white guys with money thought other white guys with money do the work best, and made sure to hire other white guys, don't you feel like that's discrimination? Why would a claim that it "just happened" mean it isn't discrimination? I've definitely seen this happen at lots of startups I've worked at. I knew a Princeton C-level from a top 10 app company who would always only hire people from the same school that pretty much looked like exact clones of him.

Similarly, at work, I've had directors agree to let me work on big, ground breaking projects, but as soon as they see I'm disabled they immediately change their tune from a transfer being "one easy email" to "oh, we changed our mind, deal with it, don't talk to me, talk to HR".

Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by raxxorrax on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:48AM (#24060203)
The field changed. Why did all the women kick out the men from psychology?
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by 9HZZRfNlpR on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:55AM (#24059819)
The work women did is very different from today, it wasn't programming we thinknof today. Majority of women I know in my life don't want to fiend their lives in front of computer doing weekend projects, skip social interactions like nerds do. But I also think it's not good or healthy for them either.
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by jmisavage on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @09:28AM (#24060521)
All those things you said aren't healthy for anybody regardless of gender.
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by _qulr on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:35AM (#24059646)
The ageism in tech is actually worse than the situation in the NBA (which I wouldn't really call ageism). Nobody thinks that fresh college graduates are the peak performers in basketball. It usually takes many years of experience before NBA players hit their peak. You have to learn how to win. Michael Jordan didn't win his first of 6 championships until his 8th year in the league.

But somehow fresh college grads are highly sought after in tech, while experienced developers get pushed out of the industry entirely, despite the fact that physical attributes that decline with age and are relevant to sports are completely irrelevant to tech.

Everyone in tech is looking for their young "Einstein". Except there was only 1 Einstein, and nobody is getting him for their startup.

Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by raxxorrax on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:27AM (#24059559)
Wanting to make unequal things equal is a common mistake that I hoped we have learned to avoid at some point. That was plain wrong. Of course some demographics might have had a head start, but over a long period of time the numbers should equalize.

Some diagnose systemic issues and some apply positive discrimination, which is just discrimination with a supposedly correct reason.

I think it is unhelpful, builds animosity and I disagree with the generally accepted orthodoxy in that field.

We actually see that more free societies show more unequal distributions of demographics in some fields. Until there is an explanation, I regard these ambitions as unscientific and dogmatic.

To discriminate against white or asian people for injustices of the past is real racism and real discrimination. If we want to get rid of racism, you need to get rid of people perpetuating it first. Otherwise it become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by theredlion on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:35AM (#24059643)
> Of course some demographics might have had a head start, but over a long period of time the numbers should equalize.

What on earth makes you imagine this to be the case in absolutely any situation?

How can one possibly think this is a given?

Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by raxxorrax on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:46AM (#24060189)
Well, in many industries the "who knows who" is a significant roadblock for extern competitors, which can slow down the process.

But that is already a compromise to the position that explains unequal demographics with discrimination. There are countless examples where demographics did change after civil rights got extended, psychology is an example.

I think CS has a distorted (self) image that can make it unattractive to women, but that is also something that either changes gradually or reflects the type of person drawn to the field. In the latter case there is no problem. Actually I think carelessly attesting systemic racism/sexism keeps more people out than actual discrimination.

You can easily falsify that when you look at academic juniors where there wasn't even any room to discriminate anyone and their later representation in the work force.

I don't feel to happy to justify myself for not wanting to discriminate against anyone and why I think that a Bloomberg author might have not a good grasp at what he/she writes about. Sorry, didn't look up the name/sex/race because I just don't care.

Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by matthewmacleod on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:48AM (#24059754)
Particularly when the exact opposite seems true; without conscious effort, inequality seems doomed to reinforce itself.
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by theredlion on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:33AM (#24059618)
Well the this article is obviously nonsensical to any rational individual.

Why?

Because they are taking and end result and, instead of trying to discover or understand the many factors which go into said end result, they are slapping the old "racism" sticker on it and inferring causation.

This way of thinking is pathological and it is infecting the entire tech industry, which is supposed to be reliant on science and reason, but is sacrificing itself to horridly formed arguments

Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by jvreagan on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @10:04AM (#24060847)
Thomas Sowell covers this exact topic in detail with data in his recent book Discrimination and Disparities. In summary, you are spot on and he explains why, using global and historical data. And why society is best served this way. In fact he says we shouldn’t be asking why there are differences in outcomes, but rather why would we expect outcomes to have even distribution among groups.
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by throwaway2048 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:09AM (#24059415)
Just because a problem is at the systematic level, and not at the individual level, does not mean it ceases to be a problem, or that it is not possible to address.
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by TheAdamAndChe on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:12AM (#24059433)
No offense, but this argument could be used to hand-wave away basically anything you don't like. It's rather baseless.
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by claudiawerner on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:21AM (#24059504)
GP's argument is not for diversity (of race/gender/class/whatever else), but against the idea that such a project would necessarily be utopian, or that only individual action can fix a systemic issue. It doesn't even argue that there is a systemic issue, it is only a comment on the nature of systemic and individual issues.

GP's comment, far from hand-waving away 'anything they don't like' actually seems to be an argument against hand-waving based on a narrow, constricted view of societal problems (i.e. on the level of individuals and particular firms). The theoretical model propounded in the top-level comment should be questioned. If we still end up at the same answer even after questioning, that's fine - but it still needs questioning.

I don't think anyone actually argues that SV hiring practises are 'evil' or deliberately a particular way. GP seems to agree - evil is very much an element of conspiracy or deliberate action. We need to look wider than that, and not assign blame to people working within a system. When one says "that's just the way it is" - the correct answer is not "because of evil people", but rather to answer with a question in return - "why is that the way it is?". That way, you can start investigating the system rather than the individuals within it, who work to their own ends (as libertarian economists are fond of pointing out).

The constant dichotomy in these discussions set up between 'equality of outcome' and 'equality of opportunity' can only perceive individuals and individual firms. That dichotomy is worth questioning if we want to even consider the systemic view. The systemic view, as every philosopher I can name (on the right or the left) propounds, considers equality of opportunity. Marx himself famously rallied against these abstract notions of 'equality'.

There is only one philosopher in the whole of Western political and philosophical thought who propounds some kind of exactly equal distribution: Barbeuf, and he lived in the 18th century, and his ideas are not currently popular.

Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by blahbhthrow3748 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:31AM (#24059602)
My reading of OP is that it's bad to have a goal of "more Black founders", etc. because it's "unnatural" and "goes against meritocracy". We should simply continue the status quo because OP believes the system that rewards them must be the best and most just, equal possible system.
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by TheAdamAndChe on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @09:54AM (#24060753)
Nowhere did they say its unnatural. Other than that, I'd agree with your interpretation.
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by cerebrum on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:22AM (#24059518)
You are assuming it is a problem, there is your political judgement. Why should all genders and races be represented equally in all occupations? Pertinent dictum: Strive for equality of opportunity not equality of outcomes.
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by microcolonel on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:17AM (#24059476)
More of us should have stood up for James Damore when he said the same thing; he took special care to extend a lot of olive branches to the SocJus people who ultimately threw him under the bus and tried to destroy him.

Every year it gets harder to make the case for basic numeracy when thinking about issues like this.

Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by secondcoming on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:23AM (#24059522)
It seems to me that they pretty much succeeded in destroying him. I'd love to know how his career has fared since.
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by grahamlee on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:29AM (#24059578)
I looked on LinkedIn, he’s a software engineer at “startup”. So his career is going no worse than most of the people on this site.
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by HNTW on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:27AM (#24059565)
Last I checked he had been hired by the tech company my friend works at. So okay?
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by secondcoming on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:41AM (#24059694)
That's good to know!

Edit: Lol, why would anyone downvote this!?

Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by blahbhthrow3748 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:26AM (#24059553)
When you live in a country that was founded on racism, Jim Crow and redlining, where the president is saying we need to "take back the suburbs" (for white people only), how do you react to that? "Not my problem?"

When you see 1% of tech founders are black, you think that's just their preference? They don't feel like founding tech companies? Or do majority white VCs not offer them funding, and their majority white peer group doesn't take them seriously? Or maybe it's because Black households have tens of thousands of dollars less wealth on average because of discrimination

Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by jamisteven on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:29AM (#24059583)
How about 1% NBA players that are white?
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by czzr on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:51AM (#24060226)
It’s actually about a quarter white, but that aside - why do you think that blacks make up such a large percentage of the NBA?
Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by _qulr on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:00AM (#24061542)
It's important to keep in mind (1) there are only a few hundred active NBA players on planet Earth and (2) most of them have been training hard at basketball since childhood. (Only the rare "big man" can get away with being a late starter.)

So when we talk about "preferences" here, it's not about adult preferences, it's about childhood preferences.

Most careers don't, and shouldn't, require you to choose them in childhood.

Re:Silicon Valley didn’t inherit discrimination, but replica... by blahbhthrow3748 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:32AM (#24059612)