The challenges of hydrogen for airliners, part 2: ecosystem

Re:The challenges of hydrogen for airliners, part 2: ecosystem by jeffreyrogers on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:17PM (#24042103)

I like hydrogen and support trying it in aviation (the Soviet Union actually had an airliner that ran on liquid hydrogen, so this isn't really that new of an idea), but I really don't see how hydrogen can compete on economics with fossil fuels.

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Re:The challenges of hydrogen for airliners, part 2: ecosystem by ZeroGravitas on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:46PM (#24042437)

Economics with or without carbon externalities internalized via a carbon fee?

One is like saying "it's cheaper if I dump my pollution in this river than using your new tech" and one is like saying "even after cleaning the output so thats its pure water and disposing of it properly to the same degree as your new tech, I'd still be making money doing the old tech plus cleanup".

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Re:The challenges of hydrogen for airliners, part 2: ecosystem by woodandsteel on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:51PM (#24045687)

Any alternative must use renewable energy. The question is whether that should be used to produce hydrogen or synfuel kerosene.

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Re:The challenges of hydrogen for airliners, part 2: ecosystem by hannob on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:43PM (#24042412)

That is if you assume fossil fuel users remain being allowed to dump their emissions into the atmosphere without caring for the consequences?

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Re:The challenges of hydrogen for airliners, part 2: ecosystem by jeffreyrogers on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:50PM (#24042511)

Yes, I'm assuming that, since there is no political will to change that anytime soon. (This is not a value judgement on my part, just an observation.)

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Re:The challenges of hydrogen for airliners, part 2: ecosystem by jandrese on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:33PM (#24042295)

Thus far several companies have experimented with H2 aircraft and come to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense with current technology.

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Re:The challenges of hydrogen for airliners, part 2: ecosystem by ncmncm on Monday August 03, 2020 @06:37PM (#24044305)

New insulation technology changes the balance. Practical aerogel production means that heavy, shape-constrained high-pressure tankage is no longer needed, so that tanks may now be light and have the most convenient shape.

Furthermore, recent advances in catalysts for hydrolysis, some directly from sun exposure with no detour through electric form, make production of hydrogen from water and light practical.

New airframes with lifting-body designs, already better than those used now, have more room for tankage as a side benefit.

The practicality of any idea can change very, very rapidly, as details of solutions to engineering problems change. Recently solar and wind power were impractical. Now they are cheapest, and coal-fired power is impractical.

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Re:The challenges of hydrogen for airliners, part 2: ecosystem by woodandsteel on Monday August 03, 2020 @09:53PM (#24045692)

Is anybody building a plane that makes use of these new technologies?

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Re:The challenges of hydrogen for airliners, part 2: ecosystem by ncmncm on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @04:09AM (#24047767)

No. At least not that they are telling anyone about. But there is plenty of evidence people equipped to do something are thinking about it.

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Re:The challenges of hydrogen for airliners, part 2: ecosystem by sandworm101 on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:48PM (#24042469)

Others have concluded that it doesn't make sense even with future technology. The energy density of hydrogen, while better than batteries, just isn't worth all the headaches.

For a similar cost to an extensive LH2 infrastructure, various diesel-from-air solutions could produce simple non-cryogenic hydrocarbon fuels. (CO2 + H2 = CHC + O2)

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Re:The challenges of hydrogen for airliners, part 2: ecosystem by jeffreyrogers on Monday August 03, 2020 @03:37PM (#24042331)

Yeah, I think hydrogen is a few decades too early. Maybe if there is real regulation limiting GHG emissions or high oil prices hydrogen will make sense, but until then I don't see how it can be made to work.

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